Aire Head Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 Hi I am currently in the process of designing the Layout i intend to build in my spare room and I am now planning out the signalling for it. I have sketched a diagram showing the proposed layout and marked down where and what signals I think there should be. I would greatly appreciate though people which a much better knowledge than mine having a look and providing feedback. The layout is based on the premise of a fictional station on the former Midland route through the Aire Valley set in the 1950s, The station is located between Keighley and Skipton, for the sake of simplicity I am assuming that the adjacent block sections are plain track and around a mile long. Thank you in advance for any assistance. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Flying Pig Posted March 3, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 3, 2020 32 minutes ago, Aire Head said: My guess is that the first stop signal in each direction is not needed and that right-direction moves out of the sidingshttps://www.s-r-s.org.uk/index.php would be controlled by discs. This is based on the links I posted in the planning thread and on Settle and Carlisle stations on the Signalling Record Society site rather than any particular expertise 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aire Head Posted March 3, 2020 Author Share Posted March 3, 2020 42 minutes ago, Flying Pig said: My guess is that the first stop signal in each direction is not needed and that right-direction moves out of the sidingshttps://www.s-r-s.org.uk/index.php would be controlled by discs. This is based on the links I posted in the planning thread and on Settle and Carlisle stations on the Signalling Record Society site rather than any particular expertise That had crossed my mind but I also considered that the down siding would likely be used as a refuge siding aswell as for access to the goods yard. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titanius Anglesmith Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 1 hour ago, Flying Pig said: My guess is that the first stop signal in each direction is not needed and that right-direction moves out of the sidingshttps://www.s-r-s.org.uk/index.php would be controlled by discs. This is based on the links I posted in the planning thread and on Settle and Carlisle stations on the Signalling Record Society site rather than any particular expertise Agreed. I’d also say the middle stop signal on the down line just before the bridge could also go. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Flying Pig Posted March 3, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 3, 2020 27 minutes ago, Aire Head said: That had crossed my mind but I also considered that the down siding would likely be used as a refuge siding aswell as for access to the goods yard. Even so, as there's an advanced starter controlling the section I think a disc would be adequate. I'll wait and see what someone more informed thinks though. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aire Head Posted March 3, 2020 Author Share Posted March 3, 2020 (edited) So based off the feedback would this seem more appropriate? Edited March 3, 2020 by Aire Head wrong diagram Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Flying Pig Posted March 3, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 3, 2020 6 minutes ago, Aire Head said: So based off the feedback would this seem more appropriate? To quote Wallace Greenslade "not quite": you still need the down advanced starter, but that's off scene anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aire Head Posted March 3, 2020 Author Share Posted March 3, 2020 (edited) You mean like this Edited March 3, 2020 by Aire Head 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted March 4, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 4, 2020 You are lacking a ground signal in front of the signalbox. You only have one at the moment for moves over the crossover. You need another for reversing into the Up Refuge. Note that the signalbox has moved to the down side. This should enable you to move the level crossing nearer to the pointwork and deal with that rodding issue. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aire Head Posted March 4, 2020 Author Share Posted March 4, 2020 24 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said: You are lacking a ground signal in front of the signalbox. You only have one at the moment for moves over the crossover. You need another for reversing into the Up Refuge. Note that the signalbox has moved to the down side. This should enable you to move the level crossing nearer to the pointwork and deal with that rodding issue. I've added it in, not sure if the placement is right however. I think I'm going to have to play around with the level crossing area in order to make the goods yard entrance work, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titanius Anglesmith Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said: You are lacking a ground signal in front of the signalbox. You only have one at the moment for moves over the crossover. You need another for reversing into the Up Refuge. The existing ground signal is fine, provided that the one signal can read over the three routes (route 1 into the goods, 2 over the crossover and 3 into the refuge). Or it should be three stacked signals in the one location (I’m not sure what Midland practice was regarding stacked signals). It would probably be better placed in the cess rather than the six foot though. Or omit the ground signal entirely! The Midland often never had fixed signals at crossovers or entering sidings. Edited March 4, 2020 by Titanius Anglesmith Too too many many words words 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted March 4, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 4, 2020 No ground signals in the vicinity of the box is indeed a possibility - with the signalman flagging the moves. Also the possibility of small arms above each other on a post (definitely in the cess rather than the 6'). Easier to make working but ground discs can be non-operating without looking too silly. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Harlequin Posted March 4, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 4, 2020 Here's an alternative source of info, although still nothing specific to the area in question: http://www.lymmobservatory.net/railways/sbdiagrams/sbdiagrams.htm#mr I have the feeling we're flapping around, rather, waiting for a real Midland signalling expert to show up! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aire Head Posted March 4, 2020 Author Share Posted March 4, 2020 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Harlequin said: Here's an alternative source of info, although still nothing specific to the area in question: http://www.lymmobservatory.net/railways/sbdiagrams/sbdiagrams.htm#mr I have the feeling we're flapping around, rather, waiting for a real Midland signalling expert to show up! To be fair it's a vast improvement over flapping around waiting for any expert! Edit: from that Website Bingkey Junction box is on the Aire Valley line about 10 miles downstream from my proposed area. Sadly it doesn't help much because it's part of the Shipley triangle and therefore completely unlike what I am doing (although I would love to do a model of Shipley one day!) Edited March 4, 2020 by Aire Head 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bécasse Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 John Hinson's site has a whole string of Midland-originating signal layouts and John spent a fair bit of his signalling career working ex-Midland boxes. Bakewell isn't so different, for example, and certainly confirms both the use of a dolly at the exit from the sidings and the use of a single dolly controlling setting back moves from the up platform even though there was more than one possible route. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken.W Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 I'd suggest the shunt signal(s) on the Up in front of the signal box controlling setting back moves through the crossovers, however you decide to do these signals, should be the other side of the level crossing. As it is, you basically have unsignaled setting back moves over a level crossing. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Harlequin Posted March 4, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 4, 2020 (edited) On the Lymm observatory website have a look at Grindleford. There are some useful similarities, I think. Edit: It turns out that Grindleford is a great find, simply as a rather lovely little station! It's all on a curve and just beyond the platform, the tracks are crossed by a bridge and then almost immediately disappear into a tunnel, all of which cause all sorts of sighting problems for the signals. You can see that in the SBD. For instance look at the position and style of the Up Starter! https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3841713 And notice the banner repeater in rear of the Up Home much further around the curve. Great fun! Edited March 5, 2020 by Harlequin 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted March 5, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) Midland station layouts were very consistent - and very like yours - and the signalling likewise. Do you have V.R. Anderson and G.K. Fox, Stations & Structures of the Settle & Carlisle Railway (OPC, 1986)? That has signalling diagrams for this type of layout. In the up direction, there would be: up distant - off stage beyond the scenic break bridge, as you have drawn up home - roughly where you've drawn it, or maybe a little further back up starter - beyond the platform, as you've drawn it, but it must be far enough advance of the crossover into the up lay-by to enable any train setting back into the lay-by to do so without passing it In the down direction: down distant - off stage as drawn down home - at the far end of the platform, so that a train standing at the platform is within station limits and consequently protected, though this does also mean the signalman can give "train out of section" to the previous box (I think) down starter - as for the up starter, sufficiently far ahead that a train setting back into the down siding remains within station limits - that probably does mean beyond the overbridge scenic break, which presents sighting difficulties - I'm not sure how you get round that. Shunting: all other signals are ground signals exit from the up and down sidings is controlled by ground signals backing into the up or down sidings and over the crossover may be controlled by ground signals but this isn't essential - such movements are in full view of the signalman and could be controlled by flags or hand signals. This may depend on the antiquity of the installation and whether it was zealously re-signalled in later years. If the down siding is also a refuge siding - i.e. is quite long - then Midland practice would be to have another trailing connection to the down line so that the yard could be shunted from the down line - this would introduce a double slip or perhaps a pair of 3-ways toe to toe. Archetypal Midland layouts: No signalling shown. Also drawn as if all points were worked from the box - in practice any points controlling movements solely within the yard would be hand points. Under some circumstances, the opposite running line could be used as a refuge - for example, if the down siding was occupied by wagons, a down goods or mineral train could set back onto the up line to allow a faster down goods or passenger train to pass. I don't know how much this dodge was used on the Midland, though. Everyone has to remember what's going on and the signalman should neither accept an up train or allow the down train to depart wrong line... Makes for interesting operating! Edited March 5, 2020 by Compound2632 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aire Head Posted March 11, 2020 Author Share Posted March 11, 2020 (edited) On 05/03/2020 at 15:12, Compound2632 said: Midland station layouts were very consistent - and very like yours - and the signalling likewise. Do you have V.R. Anderson and G.K. Fox, Stations & Structures of the Settle & Carlisle Railway (OPC, 1986)? That has signalling diagrams for this type of layout. In the up direction, there would be: up distant - off stage beyond the scenic break bridge, as you have drawn up home - roughly where you've drawn it, or maybe a little further back up starter - beyond the platform, as you've drawn it, but it must be far enough advance of the crossover into the up lay-by to enable any train setting back into the lay-by to do so without passing it In the down direction: down distant - off stage as drawn down home - at the far end of the platform, so that a train standing at the platform is within station limits and consequently protected, though this does also mean the signalman can give "train out of section" to the previous box (I think) down starter - as for the up starter, sufficiently far ahead that a train setting back into the down siding remains within station limits - that probably does mean beyond the overbridge scenic break, which presents sighting difficulties - I'm not sure how you get round that. Shunting: all other signals are ground signals exit from the up and down sidings is controlled by ground signals backing into the up or down sidings and over the crossover may be controlled by ground signals but this isn't essential - such movements are in full view of the signalman and could be controlled by flags or hand signals. This may depend on the antiquity of the installation and whether it was zealously re-signalled in later years. If the down siding is also a refuge siding - i.e. is quite long - then Midland practice would be to have another trailing connection to the down line so that the yard could be shunted from the down line - this would introduce a double slip or perhaps a pair of 3-ways toe to toe. Archetypal Midland layouts: No signalling shown. Also drawn as if all points were worked from the box - in practice any points controlling movements solely within the yard would be hand points. Under some circumstances, the opposite running line could be used as a refuge - for example, if the down siding was occupied by wagons, a down goods or mineral train could set back onto the up line to allow a faster down goods or passenger train to pass. I don't know how much this dodge was used on the Midland, though. Everyone has to remember what's going on and the signalman should neither accept an up train or allow the down train to depart wrong line... Makes for interesting operating! Apologies for the long wait on a reply! Based off this I will be planning to add another trailing connection into the goods yard allowing for the down loop to be used as a relief siding. The level crossing might have to be removed altogether however this then creates the issue of goods yard access, this may only be achievable by using a road overbridge which almost immediately creates sighting issues. This shouldn't affect the up line as the up home is just before the level crossing and therefore the likely location of a bridge. The up starter is beyond the station and therefore visible for a significant distance beyond the location of the proposed bridge. On the down line the home signal is also offscene beyond the station, likewise the starter is also offscene beyond the existing bridge in order to allow trains reversing into the down relief to not enter the next section. Regarding the down starter not being visible however from the station, goods yard and relief siding perhaps the creation of an advanced starter at the end of the relief siding would be sensible? Edited March 11, 2020 by Aire Head 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted March 11, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 11, 2020 7 minutes ago, Aire Head said: The level crossing might have to be removed altogether however this then creates the issue of goods yard access, this may only be achievable by using a road overbridge which almost immediately creates sighting issues. Typically, the main station building would be on the same side as the goods yard so they would share an access road. I think it would be rather unusual to have a level crossing purely for access to the goods yard. 9 minutes ago, Aire Head said: Regarding the down starter not being visible however from the station, goods yard and relief siding perhaps the creation of an advanced starter at the end of the relief siding would be sensible? An advance starter is a signal that is even further in advance than the starter - the sequence can extend to: distant, outer home, inner home, starter, advance starter. I wouldn't worry too much about this signal - you can assume that it is on a tall post so it can be sighted over the bridge, perhaps with a repeater arm at driver's eye level. (That would be very LNWR - not sure of any Midland examples.) If its out of sight of the signalbox, then there's probably a repeater instrument in the box. Departures from the down lay-by siding would be signalled by a ground signal, I suppose; the train can draw out as far as the starter and be prepared to wait there if it's not yet been cleared. The driver of a through down train would be prepared to stop at the starter if the distant had been at danger, even if the home was clear - he would already have been ready to stop at the home. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aire Head Posted March 11, 2020 Author Share Posted March 11, 2020 3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: Typically, the main station building would be on the same side as the goods yard so they would share an access road. I think it would be rather unusual to have a level crossing purely for access to the goods yard. An advance starter is a signal that is even further in advance than the starter - the sequence can extend to: distant, outer home, inner home, starter, advance starter. I wouldn't worry too much about this signal - you can assume that it is on a tall post so it can be sighted over the bridge, perhaps with a repeater arm at driver's eye level. (That would be very LNWR - not sure of any Midland examples.) If its out of sight of the signalbox, then there's probably a repeater instrument in the box. Departures from the down lay-by siding would be signalled by a ground signal, I suppose; the train can draw out as far as the starter and be prepared to wait there if it's not yet been cleared. The driver of a through down train would be prepared to stop at the starter if the distant had been at danger, even if the home was clear - he would already have been ready to stop at the home. Apologies I should have been clearer on this! Stations in the section of the Aire valley I am modelling are always situated by roads running perpendicular to the railway. This is because the valley is flat and wide at the bottom in this area meaning that typically there will be villages on opposite sides of the valley with the station located in between (hence stations are named Kildwick and Crosshills, Steeton and Silsden and so on). But that aside thinking about it I could probably run the road under tha railway anyway and still access the goods yard and station. Of course this means signalling wise everything I've said is irrelevant and doesnt affect anything except by the removal of the level crossing Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted March 11, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 11, 2020 (edited) If the level crossing helps to establish the location, then it ought to be kept. The goods yard sidings shouldn't cross the road. This separation of the passenger and goods stations does increase the total length of the station, which can be inconvenient with limited modelling space. If you do do away with the level crossing, you can save length by having the pointwork for the goods yard starting between the platform faces in a very characteristically Midland manner, as here at Armathwaite, seen on 3 Aug 1911: NRM DY 9596, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum. Note the layout of the goods yard with double slip and extra trailing connection to the down line. Edited March 11, 2020 by Compound2632 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aire Head Posted March 11, 2020 Author Share Posted March 11, 2020 As suggested above is exactly where I was thinking of going with my plan. Although I hadn't considered the goods yard pointwork being on the station area which actually helps me condense the station area. This helps me additionally as it means I can increase the fiddle yard area and perhaps make it appear that the road and therefore all the relevent access is offscene. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted March 11, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 11, 2020 I've now been wondering if the level crossing would require an inner home - the outer home protecting the rear of a train at the down platform. I'm also unclear what the rules would be on opening the gates to the road if there is shunting going on within station limits. I suspect it would not be unusual to keep the gates closed to the road for far longer than would now be considered tolerable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aire Head Posted March 11, 2020 Author Share Posted March 11, 2020 11 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: I suspect it would not be unusual to keep the gates closed to the road for far longer than would now be considered tolerable. I'd have thought in a particularly rural area that a significant amount of the local road traffic would be in fact as a result of the railway anyway as it would be the primary means of getting goods into the area even into the 1950s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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