GWR and GCR joint railway

[The Stationmaster]

15 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Hi there,

The aspect of the Joint line that I am interested in is the trains that ran from Aylesbury/Princes Risborough/High Wycombe to Maidenhead/Taplow/Slough and Paddington because I am modelling based on the Relief Lines and High Wycombe Branch junction at Maidenhead in 1960/2, which I am calling Lower Thames Junction.

I have WTTs and Carriage Working Books that give me a lot of detail but I am missing key details on some of the trains, particularly the locos used.

 

Three particular questions:-

 

A key train is the 0540 Parcels from Reading via Maidenhead to Princes Risborough, whose loco returned around 0900 LE to Slough. I have the times and the formation, but what was the usual loco?

As many of the Branch trains were hauled by 61xxs or Panniers, I plan to use a 56xx 0-6-2 for this train but is that right?

 

There was a through evening Freight from Slough to the Birmingham area, but what hauled that?

 

In one of the many books covering the Branch it is suggested that coal to the stations on the branch was dropped off by an evening train. Was this the train from Oxford to Slough or dropped at High Wycombe off a freight from Banbury and taken down the branch by the returning Taplow to High Wycombe freight?

 

Any thoughts or facts would be welcome!

 

Many thanks

Paul

 

 

 

 

 

 

OT sorry,  The Reading parcels would have been a 61XX turn in view of the reversal at Maidenhead

[Tallpaul69]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

OT sorry,  The Reading parcels would have been a 61XX turn in view of the reversal at Maidenhead

I'm not suprised Mike!

I realized the train would need a tank because of the reversal at Maidenhead.

Knowing Slough had the occasional 56xx, and my having a couple of them, I thought to use one as a bit of variety!

Much as I like the 61xx family, you can have too much of a good thing!

 

Maybe I'll put the 56xx on the Morning Fish?

 

Cheers

Paul

[Mike_Walker]

On 20/03/2020 at 20:34, Tallpaul69 said:

Hi there,

The aspect of the Joint line that I am interested in is the trains that ran from Aylesbury/Princes Risborough/High Wycombe to Maidenhead/Taplow/Slough and Paddington because I am modelling based on the Relief Lines and High Wycombe Branch junction at Maidenhead in 1960/2, which I am calling Lower Thames Junction.

I have WTTs and Carriage Working Books that give me a lot of detail but I am missing key details on some of the trains, particularly the locos used.

 

Three particular questions:-

 

A key train is the 0540 Parcels from Reading via Maidenhead to Princes Risborough, whose loco returned around 0900 LE to Slough. I have the times and the formation, but what was the usual loco?

As many of the Branch trains were hauled by 61xxs or Panniers, I plan to use a 56xx 0-6-2 for this train but is that right?

 

There was a through evening Freight from Slough to the Birmingham area, but what hauled that?

 

In one of the many books covering the Branch it is suggested that coal to the stations on the branch was dropped off by an evening train. Was this the train from Oxford to Slough or dropped at High Wycombe off a freight from Banbury and taken down the branch by the returning Taplow to High Wycombe freight?

 

Any thoughts or facts would be welcome!

 

Many thanks

Paul

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Slough to Birmingham evening freight was usually a 9F, 92220 on occasions, later became a Brush 4.

Regards

Mike

[jointline]

On 20/03/2020 at 20:34, Tallpaul69 said:

Hi there,

The aspect of the Joint line that I am interested in is the trains that ran from Aylesbury/Princes Risborough/High Wycombe to Maidenhead/Taplow/Slough and Paddington because I am modelling based on the Relief Lines and High Wycombe Branch junction at Maidenhead in 1960/2, which I am calling Lower Thames Junction.

I have WTTs and Carriage Working Books that give me a lot of detail but I am missing key details on some of the trains, particularly the locos used.

 

Three particular questions:-

 

A key train is the 0540 Parcels from Reading via Maidenhead to Princes Risborough, whose loco returned around 0900 LE to Slough. I have the times and the formation, but what was the usual loco?

As many of the Branch trains were hauled by 61xxs or Panniers, I plan to use a 56xx 0-6-2 for this train but is that right?

 

There was a through evening Freight from Slough to the Birmingham area, but what hauled that?

 

In one of the many books covering the Branch it is suggested that coal to the stations on the branch was dropped off by an evening train. Was this the train from Oxford to Slough or dropped at High Wycombe off a freight from Banbury and taken down the branch by the returning Taplow to High Wycombe freight?

 

Any thoughts or facts would be welcome!

 

Many thanks

Paul

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Paul

I can't really answer any of those questions.  But 56xx class 0-6-2s were not that common in the London/Thames Valley area in my recollection, until quite late in the steam period.  There was one 66xx class at Southall I remember, but photographic evidence is slim.  There is also a picture of a 45xx on the Uxbridge High Street branch coal train just before closure, but I've no idea where that was shedded.   Branch services along Maidenhead to High Wycombe  passenger were in the hands of 61xx class, and also the 14xx used on the Marlow auto trains.   After the Watlington shed closed the branch engine was shedded at Slough I seem to remember,  and worked up every day.  This was invariably a 57xx series pannier tank.  Later on 84xxx class were used on the Chinnor  coal traffic, and also 16xx class. 

My memories are mainly post 1960, as that is when I started going on these lines, and they were then in the early stages of dieselisation. 

I have an appendix to the working timetable somewhere, so I'll see if that has any more info.

[Tallpaul69]

2 hours ago, jointline said:

Hi Paul

I can't really answer any of those questions.  But 56xx class 0-6-2s were not that common in the London/Thames Valley area in my recollection, until quite late in the steam period.  There was one 66xx class at Southall I remember, but photographic evidence is slim.  There is also a picture of a 45xx on the Uxbridge High Street branch coal train just before closure, but I've no idea where that was shedded.   Branch services along Maidenhead to High Wycombe  passenger were in the hands of 61xx class, and also the 14xx used on the Marlow auto trains.   After the Watlington shed closed the branch engine was shedded at Slough I seem to remember,  and worked up every day.  This was invariably a 57xx series pannier tank.  Later on 84xxx class were used on the Chinnor  coal traffic, and also 16xx class. 

My memories are mainly post 1960, as that is when I started going on these lines, and they were then in the early stages of dieselisation. 

I have an appendix to the working timetable somewhere, so I'll see if that has any more info.

Thanks for the info.

Adding to what you have said, there was a 56/66 shedded at Slough in the early 60s and also a 45xx. I have a pic of the 45xx on the High Wycombe branch just leaving Maidenhead with a short freight which I am guessing is what then remained of the "Loudwater Goods".

Re the Watlington  branch I think after closure of the branch shed the loco while allocated to Slough actually overnighted at Aylesbury which at one stage was a sub shed of Slough!

Others have suggested that the Parcels was yet another 61xx turn, so I may well use the 56xx on the morning Fish from Reading to Slough and get a bit of variety that way!

Best regards

Paul

[4069]

On 20/03/2020 at 14:03, jointline said:

You couldn't run different periods at different running sessions, as the LMR did a lot of resignalling.

Are you sure? The LMR had control of the Joint Line from 1975 until about 1990, and didn't replace a single signal until the total route modernisation started.

 

What makes it difficult to mix periods if you are modelling the northern half of the line (West Wycombe to Ashendon Jn) is that the GCR/LNER were responsible for maintenance from opening, so many of the original GWR-pattern signals were replaced with upper quadrants over the years. On nationalisation, the WR gained control and lower quadrants came back steadily, so that by the time of the transfer to the LMR in 1975 there were no upper quadrants left. No such problem for the Northolt Jn - High Wycombe section, which was under GWR/WR maintenance throughout.

[Tallpaul69]

On ‎23‎/‎03‎/‎2020 at 12:31, Tallpaul69 said:

Thanks for the info.

Adding to what you have said, there was a 56/66 shedded at Slough in the early 60s and also a 45xx. I have a pic of the 45xx on the High Wycombe branch just leaving Maidenhead with a short freight which I am guessing is what then remained of the "Loudwater Goods".

Re the Watlington  branch I think after closure of the branch shed the loco while allocated to Slough actually overnighted at Aylesbury which at one stage was a sub shed of Slough!

Others have suggested that the Parcels was yet another 61xx turn, so I may well use the 56xx on the morning Fish from Reading to Slough and get a bit of variety that way!

Best regards

Paul

I can't find a home for my 56xx anywhere!

In my copy of Through the Links at Southall and Old Oak Common that arrived this week the Fish is shown as a pannier turn!

 

Maybe I'll use the 56xx on a gash set of coaches as a substitute for a failed diesel. I presume in reality control just found another diesel set from somewhere?

 

Or has anyone else any bright ideas??

 

Cheers

Pauli 

[The Stationmaster]

1 minute ago, Tallpaul69 said:

I can't find a home for my 56xx anywhere!

In my copy of Through the Links at Southall and Old Oak Common that arrived this week the Fish is shown as a pannier turn!

 

Maybe I'll use the 56xx on a gash set of coaches as a substitute for a failed diesel. I presume in reality control just found another diesel set from somewhere?

 

Or has anyone else any bright ideas??

 

Cheers

Pauli 

I know that in its later years Slough used the 56XX on the 'Wycombe goods' trip working - so you can send it round the branch if you like..

[Tallpaul69]

8 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I know that in its later years Slough used the 56XX on the 'Wycombe goods' trip working - so you can send it round the branch if you like..

Thanks Mike, I'd forgotten about that, partly because I was intending to use a 45xx on that duty.

So I have three possibilities for that duty:- a pannier, a 56xx or a 45xx!

I guess by the time the 45xx or 56xx were used the practice of swapping the train engine for the High Wycombe shunter each day had ceased, as I think originally this was why a 57xx was used?

 

Cheers

Paul

[jointline]

On 25/03/2020 at 10:19, 4069 said:

Are you sure? The LMR had control of the Joint Line from 1975 until about 1990, and didn't replace a single signal until the total route modernisation started.

 

What makes it difficult to mix periods if you are modelling the northern half of the line (West Wycombe to Ashendon Jn) is that the GCR/LNER were responsible for maintenance from opening, so many of the original GWR-pattern signals were replaced with upper quadrants over the years. On nationalisation, the WR gained control and lower quadrants came back steadily, so that by the time of the transfer to the LMR in 1975 there were no upper quadrants left. No such problem for the Northolt Jn - High Wycombe section, which was under GWR/WR maintenance throughout.

You're spot on of course!  I was confusing "ownership" with actual signals.  I loved the upper quadrants at Princes Risborough,  especially the up starter, which was a double junction signal, and it was the combination of these with the lower quadrants that made the whole place so interesting to model.  Much as I love lower quadrants the upper ones had a certain style! These all seem to have been replaced between 1962 and 1964,  but perhaps somebody has the correct date for the signal replacements. But I think there were no upper quadrants left at Risborough post 1964.

[Jim Martin]

David

If you're interested in the 1930s, you could have a look at The Great Central in LNER Days and The Great Central in LNER Days 2 by Jackson & Russell. They're collections of essays, rather than a continuous narrative, and neither of them is explicitly about the GC&GW line; but both contain relevant content. I'd say that the first book would be more useful to you, particularly the section on passenger workings. The second book has an intriguing article on milk trains, but unfortunately the main takeaway seems to be that almost all milk trains used the Met&GC route.

 

Jim

[4069]

20 hours ago, jointline said:

You're spot on of course!  I was confusing "ownership" with actual signals.  I loved the upper quadrants at Princes Risborough,  especially the up starter, which was a double junction signal, and it was the combination of these with the lower quadrants that made the whole place so interesting to model.  Much as I love lower quadrants the upper ones had a certain style! These all seem to have been replaced between 1962 and 1964,  but perhaps somebody has the correct date for the signal replacements. But I think there were no upper quadrants left at Risborough post 1964.

Nice pictures. The North box up starters went from UQ to LQ soon after the connection from up platform to up main was taken out of use around July 1957, so their LQ replacements were a bracket and a single post. I think it's likely that it was at the same time as the splitting down homes at North box were renewed as LQs, in mid-58 as far as I can judge coinciding with the new frame in North box.

 

I'm not sure whether there was a complete clearout of UQs before the 1968 remodelling, In the second edition of  Jenkins' book, page 190, there is a picture of a 9F passing North box, dated 26 September 64, in which it's possible to see that the bay starting signal is still UQ. However, the accuracy of Jenkins' captions can be very poor. There's no doubt that after the 1968 resignalling all the signals were WR. 

 

Stuart J

[jointline]

On 27/03/2020 at 17:46, 4069 said:

Nice pictures. The North box up starters went from UQ to LQ soon after the connection from up platform to up main was taken out of use around July 1957, so their LQ replacements were a bracket and a single post. I think it's likely that it was at the same time as the splitting down homes at North box were renewed as LQs, in mid-58 as far as I can judge coinciding with the new frame in North box.

 

I'm not sure whether there was a complete clearout of UQs before the 1968 remodelling, In the second edition of  Jenkins' book, page 190, there is a picture of a 9F passing North box, dated 26 September 64, in which it's possible to see that the bay starting signal is still UQ. However, the accuracy of Jenkins' captions can be very poor. There's no doubt that after the 1968 resignalling all the signals were WR. 

 

Stuart J

Yes, I find it a bit confusing.  I took the first picture attached on 7th April 1962 showing the up starter/junction signal. However the Middleton Press book has a picture taken on 20th May 1962, showing a lower quadrant replacement  (copyright etc with Middleton Press, and acknowledged).  Perhaps this was the actual window  of time in which it was replaced? This picture shows the home for the down bay still as upper quadrant, so that may have been the last one  at Risborough.

On a slightly different note, I seem to think that the working arrangements at Risborough for running round suburban trains changed in 1958.  (Gleaned from looking at a lot of photographs). Before that it appears that the engine ran round in the down platform and propelled the train onto the up relief, then went ahead to the up platform.   Under the LMR arrangements , the engine stayed on, the train continued from the down platform, crossed the main lines to the up relief, propelled into the up platform and ran round the train there.  Would be really pleased to have confirmation or otherwise.  Could this have been to do with any resignalling at that time?

Just for info I attach the plan of Risborough I did for use with Fleischmann Profi-track.  It was achievable, but as I said in my initial post,  it was just too big in 4mm for the space I had available.  Still have all the track etc, and would like to resurrect it one day!

[jointline]

Just another quick note about Risborough;  the track diagram in R A Cooke's  Section 26  (page 26/4) omits the line between the down bay and the down relief,  which is  a strange omission.  

[4069]

2 hours ago, jointline said:

Just another quick note about Risborough;  the track diagram in R A Cooke's  Section 26  (page 26/4) omits the line between the down bay and the down relief,  which is  a strange omission.  

That error was corrected in Cooke's supplement number 3 of 1977. The latest (1992) edition of Cooke section 26 has Risborough on page 26/5, and the connection from the down bay to down platform line (not relief) is shown, with a note that it was taken out of use on 7.2.1964

[4069]

23 hours ago, jointline said:

Yes, I find it a bit confusing.  I took the first picture attached on 7th April 1962 showing the up starter/junction signal. However the Middleton Press book has a picture taken on 20th May 1962, showing a lower quadrant replacement  (copyright etc with Middleton Press, and acknowledged).  Perhaps this was the actual window  of time in which it was replaced? This picture shows the home for the down bay still as upper quadrant, so that may have been the last one  at Risborough.

I'm fascinated by this. Your picture shows the north box down main homes, still upper quadrants. The Middleton press picture of the replacement looks as though the signal structure is still in undercoat, so it could well be brand new. It was certainly painted black and silver-grey later on. The weathering on the water column is identical in the two pictures, which supports the dates quoted. Up to now I had been under the impression that signal was replaced in 1958, but that's evidently not the case.

 

When you refer to the home for the down bay, do you mean the splitting starting signal visible between the loco and the signal box? I agree I have never seen a picture of it as an LQ.

Edited March 30, 2020 by 4069

[4069]

By remarkable good fortune, I can narrow down that time window even further. This is a detail from a PJ Garland/Roger Carpenter print dated 23 April 1962 (Easter Monday), in which the down main junction signal is clearly in undercoat, with a light coloured patch of recently disturbed ballast around its base. So it has been renewed since you were there on Saturday 7 April, just over two weeks before!

 

On your point about a possible change in working arrangements in 1958, when the frame in North box was replaced in July 1958,  the changes to the outdoor signals were small, but did include adding calling-on arms below the up starting signals reading onto the platform line. This may have been accompanied by a change in the signal box instructions/practice relating to running round trains, but I don't know for sure.

 

Stuart J

[jointline]

1 hour ago, 4069 said:

By remarkable good fortune, I can narrow down that time window even further. This is a detail from a PJ Garland/Roger Carpenter print dated 23 April 1962 (Easter Monday), in which the down main junction signal is clearly in undercoat, with a light coloured patch of recently disturbed ballast around its base. So it has been renewed since you were there on Saturday 7 April, just over two weeks before!

 

On your point about a possible change in working arrangements in 1958, when the frame in North box was replaced in July 1958,  the changes to the outdoor signals were small, but did include adding calling-on arms below the up starting signals reading onto the platform line. This may have been accompanied by a change in the signal box instructions/practice relating to running round trains, but I don't know for sure.

 

Stuart J

Thank you. That's a great picture, and captures exactly the thing I wanted to capture in a model! And thank you for the other corrections. 

To take your points in order:  thanks for the correction about the RA Cooke diagram.  And yes, down platform line, not "relief".  I've got the first editions of  many of Cooke's books, and have never updated! I used the actual signal box diagram for planning my model.

Yes, I meant the bay splitting starter!   A very distinctive signal for somebody brought up on WR practice.

The picture I took on 7th April 62 was a day out which included Maidenhead-Wycombe, Risborough to Oxford, Oxford to Witney, and Radley to Abingdon.  Returning on a train to West Ruislip that didn't have any steam heating on,  (and it was a cold night!)  

Thanks for the info about running round. The appendix to the working timetable makes no reference to it, so it was probably under local arrangements,  being deemed within "station limits". 

Would be interested to hear if anything else on this turns up. 

 

[The Stationmaster]

On 29/03/2020 at 18:03, jointline said:

 

On a slightly different note, I seem to think that the working arrangements at Risborough for running round suburban trains changed in 1958.  (Gleaned from looking at a lot of photographs). Before that it appears that the engine ran round in the down platform and propelled the train onto the up relief, then went ahead to the up platform.   Under the LMR arrangements , the engine stayed on, the train continued from the down platform, crossed the main lines to the up relief, propelled into the up platform and ran round the train there.  Would be really pleased to have confirmation or otherwise.  Could this have been to do with any resignalling at that time?

Just for info I attach the plan of Risborough I did for use with Fleischmann Profi-track.  It was achievable, but as I said in my initial post,  it was just too big in 4mm for the space I had available.  Still have all the track etc, and would like to resurrect it one day!

 

 

 

This sounds a bit odd in terms of what was or wasn't done at particular dates.  The 1960 WR Sectional Appendix authorises the propelling of empty coaching stock from the Down Main to the Up Platform between Princes Risborough North and South 'boxes, which was probably the simplest way of doing the job.  The engine then would run round via the Up Main and back onto its stock at the South 'box - all in all a very simple set of moves.

 

To be honest I don't really understand the other form of working you described.  It sounds as if what happened was that the engine ran round and then propelled the stock onto the Down Main clear of the trailing crossover where it crossed over to the Up side and thence into the platform.  I don't have any pre-1960 information for Risborough but it might well have been the case that the authority to propel into the block section on the Up Platform Line didn't exist prior to 1960 (or 1958?) for some reason.

 

Incidentally the amendment details for 'Risborough North show the Down Main Home Signal as being renewed on 28.11.61.

[jointline]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

This sounds a bit odd in terms of what was or wasn't done at particular dates.  The 1960 WR Sectional Appendix authorises the propelling of empty coaching stock from the Down Main to the Up Platform between Princes Risborough North and South 'boxes, which was probably the simplest way of doing the job.  The engine then would run round via the Up Main and back onto its stock at the South 'box - all in all a very simple set of moves.

 

To be honest I don't really understand the other form of working you described.  It sounds as if what happened was that the engine ran round and then propelled the stock onto the Down Main clear of the trailing crossover where it crossed over to the Up side and thence into the platform.  I don't have any pre-1960 information for Risborough but it might well have been the case that the authority to propel into the block section on the Up Platform Line didn't exist prior to 1960 (or 1958?) for some reason.

 

Incidentally the amendment details for 'Risborough North show the Down Main Home Signal as being renewed on 28.11.61.

Thanks for this!  Didn't explain it very well!

 

In simple terms it's whether or not:

 

1. The engine ran round the stock on the down side, and then by propelling the train crossed to the up side/line, and then drew into the  up platform;

or

2. Continued with  the train across to the up side,  propelled into the up platform, and then ran round from the south to the north.

 

Having nothing else to do (!) I went back and checked the original sources.

 

"To be honest I don't really understand the other form of working you described.  It sounds as if what happened was that the engine ran round and then propelled the stock onto the Down Main clear of the trailing crossover where it crossed over to the Up side and thence into the platform."

 

This does actually seem to be the way it usually happened

 

In volume 2 of "The Country Railway" there is half a page devoted to this, including photographs of it happening.  When under ER management, the down train would draw forward from the down platform, and park its coaches by the North Signal Box, then run round and propel them onto the up main,  then draw forward into the up platform. 

However the author draws on recollections of staff saying that they would on occasion use any method possible, including drawing forward onto the down main,  propelling the stock to the up platform and then running round via the up main. 

There's also a very good picture of the first of these happening, with the stock parked in front of the north box, in the book "Paddington to the Mersey" by Hendry and Hendry. 

I have some pictures from the Transport Treasury post 1958,  but they always seem to show the engine (LMR) running round as per No.2. above.

I'll keep digging, but thank you for your help!