Revised layout to avoid collisions and help!!

[Chilly]

Hi 

 

I have used Scarm to map out a proposed layout - OMG Scarm is addictive

 

I will be using Peco 75 flexi for track, crossovers and points.

 

The track will be DC only and the trains will be steam only, no set period just what I have seen on NYMR,

 

The layout is not based on anything apart from my limited imagination.

 

The sidings are there to park the loco's, 10 in all and some carriages and rolling stock.  

 

The curves at the end are based on Rad 4 outer and Rad 3 inner albeit I have used the Hornby radius when planning this and substituted with flex, I needed to get the correct bend. Using Hornby radius appears to squeeze me into the 12ft by 4ft board.

 

I will be using a Gaugemaster D twin controller for the layout and obviously just running 2 trains at a time, the base board will be 4mm hardwood plywood supported by an underframe.

 

The points likely to be electrofrog will be manually changed initially until I get electrified. 

 

Layout possible.pdf

 

 Questions

 

Will it work !

 

If I park a train in a siding and swap the point to another train in another siding (both on the same circuit) will that train move.

 

Assuming all points set for one train only, will all other trains be effectively isolated on that circuit? 

 

Can you see any potential pitfalls arising, short circuits etc or indeed advice on improving this.

 

Thanks in advance 

 

Chilly

[Chilly]

Ah this is better as you can now see it !!

[Chilly]

Sorry that other point on the inside at the bottom should not be blue! 

Edited May 1, 2020 by Chilly

[ITG]

Seems an unusual layout. 
Why have a twin circuit that crosses over itself? That would inhibit the relaxed viewing of trains going round, for fear of accidents!

Seems impossible to cross from one circuit to the other, ie a lack of crossovers. All your stock would be permanently stuck on one circuit.

All sidings would mean shunting onto a running line.

What about a station of any kind? The sidings seem set apart from any infrastructure or continuity.

Can you access all around the board, as your arms won’t extend across 4’ if reaching from one side?

With a 4’ board, whilst I’m not familiar with Hornby but I think their R4 is 572mm radius. Remember, radii quoted are normally to the centre of the track not outside edge. So twice 572 adds up to over 45” Add on another couple of inches for the outside edge of sleepers and you won’t have a lot of space around the edges. Although you quoted using Peco, the same principle applies with space and U-bend curves. Dangerous with any derailment, if stock falls from a high baseboard.

Which locos move will depend on the use of points which have an isolating effect (whether live or dead frog) and/or how you wire  the whole layout. Ie where the power feeds are. For example, if the points (feeding off the circuits) in top left and bottom left are set into the sidings, you could isolate sections of the running line (which may not have been your intention).

Good luck. You’re in the right place as I’m still learning from this forum.

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by ITG

[Chilly]

Hi ITG

 

Yes I see what you mean re collision potential, I was trying to get away from straight up and down as far as possible.

 

Your comments on the board size are gratefully accepted.

 

The scarm program is addictive so I will have another play.

 

I was not sure how to work with points connecting parallel tracks and the electric aspects of doing that etc so thought crossovers was a neat solution, perhaps not!

 

Thanks Chilly 

[Chilly]

Well after my previous attempt here is the revised one.

 

Again this will be DC but I have no idea of the wiring for this now for traversing tracks etc and isolating and avoiding shorts.

 

please ignore baseboard lines

 

Thanks in advance Chilly

[DCB]

The shunting can still only be done on the inside track.  In the UK the protocol is usually one track for each direction, one track for goods and one passenger is pretty rare.    I did a doodle to put the sidings inside the inner track so the trains can be shunted while other trains run on both inner and outer loops, (Red lines) .   Also with the headshunt the reversed lower sidings can also be shunted while trains run, two shunts and two through trains at a time.    Not sure about the crossovers at he bottom, nut decided to eave them.   Being more ambitious I added the Y turning track in green and also a loop on the outer which would allow turning of tender locos without a turntable or awkward wiring., its just a proof of concept but may give some ideas

[ITG]

My suggestion would be that you don’t let your technical skill/knowledge limitations Inhibit the effectiveness of the track plan, as you’ll then probably end up with something  that has little long lasting appeal or is unworkable in a running trains sense. Why not keep it simple (one circuit with a passing loop and a couple of sidings), build it, wire it, run it. Then you’ll be learning as you go, and be able to then expand the track plan at a later stage. Get the planning right and stage 2 will add to stage 1 with minimum disruption.

[Zomboid]

I'd suggest you go back to step zero, and ask yourself what you want from a model railway. You've got enough space to build a pretty nice layout, but do you like watching the trains go by? Shunting? Building scenery & structures? There's no right or wrong answers, but you'll get a better design if you know what you want before putting track down.

[Chilly]

Hi David

 

I prefer your layout to mine and will adjust on Scarm , will I need more than 2 controllers to operate it. If so would you suggest Gaugemaster single or go for a 3-4 track controller?

 

ITG and Zomboid thanks for your input. 

 

Thanks Chilly

[RJS1977]

One controller for each circuit, possibly a third for the goods yard if you want to be able to shunt it while trains pass on the main line.

 

The green link David's drawn in will cause some slight electrical complications as it forms a reversing loop (which can lead to short circuits), but it's easy enough to put a switch in to resolve it. I'm not sure of its worth for reversing locos, but if you split the siding it joins into into two, then you could imagine it is a spur to a gasworks or similar industry, and shunt loaded coal wagons up the line and bring empties back out.

 

[Chimer]

To answer one of your initial questions ….

 

With DC, a loco in a siding with the point set against it will be isolated and not move (unless you supply electrickery direct to the siding rails).  This is true whether the points are live frog or dead frog (electrofrog or insulfrog respectively in Peco-speak).  

 

Also, given your curves have to be under 24" radius, I would advise you to actually use set-track curves.  It is very difficult to lay smooth flexitrack curves at those radii, especially if you need to join two pieces of track, and the last thing you need is a kink in the track on a sharp bend.

 

Once you have settled on a track plan, there are lots of people here who will happily tell you how to wire it (and where you need to use insulating rail joiners if you do use electrofrog points).

 

Do keep asking questions - best of luck!

 

Chris

[Harlequin]

Hi Chilly,

 

Why is it 12ft by 4ft? Will it be up against a wall on any or all of the sides? Is it fixed or does it need to be movable?

 

Do you want realistic scenery? (If so, the tracks run too close to the edges everywhere...!)

 

What is the purpose of the all the sidings in the middle in railway terms? (I.e. apart from being somewhere for rolling stock to stand.) Without purpose it might not be fun or satisfying to operate...

 

[DCB]

16 hours ago, Chilly said:

Hi David

 

I prefer your layout to mine and will adjust on Scarm , will I need more than 2 controllers to operate it. If so would you suggest Gaugemaster single or go for a 3-4 track controller?

 

ITG and Zomboid thanks for your input. 

 

Thanks Chilly

I prefer single controllers as you can spread them out if there are more than one operator. OK a 4 track is cheaper than 4 X singles or 2 twins.  I like the Morley hand held attachments but currently they only make double units.  can't win really.

 

Two theories on scenery, one says lots of scenery in front of the layout so trains run through the landscape, the other says the front of the layout is the railway fence/ wall so the railway comes right to the edge.  That's the view I used to get while train watching, looking over a wall at the top of a cutting,  Probably best to put a lip or wall around the edge of the layout to stop trains falling on the floor..  

Edited May 3, 2020 by DavidCBroad

[Chilly]

Hi David

 

This is the amended layout the bottom part will be towards the wall in a bedroon, with hopefully a railway station either side. I have cut off the bottom pass. 

 

I agree with a wall/fence around the side edges and at the front to avoid accidents. The baseboard will be extended to 12.5ft x 4.5 ft to give a little leeway on the track placement.

 

I have colour coded what appear to me to be 3 separate running tracks which look like they need 3 separate controllers if you agree.

 

Where would the power for these be placed to make it work?

 

What puzzles me on the electrics is the crossovers from track to track such as outside to inside /fiddle yard and vice versa; I assume that there needs some sort of isolation on those points, is this with plastic fish plates and where ?

 

When a train traverses track it appears that another controller must take over from the other assuming that controller is set for the same direction of travel?

 

When a train travels from out to in is it still possible for a train to travel the loop that the train is moving across the tracks on, say outer loop to fiddle but still operate a train on the inside track?  

 

Chimer mentioned above that where the points are set against the siding that siding will be isolated, this leads me to think that I could use a number of trains back and forward in the sidings as long as I don't live the track to another siding where a train is on?   

 

Oh one more thing if I use tracklay the sticky stuff how does it work on bends as it comes in straight lengths on a roll?

 

At the outset the scenery will be basic but hopefully built up over time and is not representative of anything, just a fun thing really !

 

Lots of questions I know but this is where the knowledge bank is

 

Thanks Chilly

 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by Chilly

[JDW]

That's a big improvement on where you started, but as @Harlequin asked further up, if the bottom edge is against a wall, how will you reach across? 4.5 feet is a long way to reach, I have very back corners on my layout that are about 3.5 feet from the edge, which are as far as I'd want to stretch. 

 

As far as crossovers go, no, you don't need plastic rail joiners. If you are just using straightforwards DC control, then (except for the middle siding which links across the two halves) the points will isolate the track they are not set for. If both sets of points in each crossover are straight, the 'middle' bit will be isolated. If you set them both curved, then you can just use one controller or the other to run a train between tracks. If you put in isolating connectors, your train will stop once it gets across the gap, or you will need to have both controllers set exactly the same speed and direction.

 

Keep the electrics as simple as you can to start with, build it, run it, don't fix anything down, and you might find you need to add it a few extra power feeds to allow certain combinations of moves, change the location of the power feed, or add isolating sections to allow (say) two locos to park on the same bit of track. 

[RJS1977]

I've had a play around in SCARM too:

 

 

By moving the lines across the fornt of the baseboard backwards, this allows you to take a 'bite' out of the front of the baseboard, which in turn means all track can be within a 3' reach.

 

 

[Chilly]

RJS 1977 - Wow that looks good.

 

I suppose in this configuration locos could be held (isolated) in say the bottom two bays shown at the top whilst a loco could pass on the remaining track or any combination depending on the points?

 

I like the ability for the outer tracks to meet up in potentially 3 ways the same as the inner track can.

 

Are the end bends Rad 3 and 4 as I am trying for the broadest bends possible such as 3&4 but to fit on a 12ft by 4ft track ?

 

I am looking at peco 100 set track for the ends, great suggestions by David Broad, Chimer and yourself.  

 

ATB Chilly

 

 

[Chimer]

This is getting a bit confusing now, with different suggestions on different threads …… don't know if the mods can merge them?

[Chilly]

Hi Chimer

 

It is my fault that this has happened as I cocked up by starting 2 threads, cocked up the original one by trying to upload a wrong file then sorted it then not happy with what was uploaded so got carried away and started a new one I am the author of this confusion so I apologise to all and if it is possible to merge that would be good.

 

Sorry Chilly