Hatton's pre-grouping coaches re Cambrian Railways

[NCB]

Just been wondering whether Hatton's new pre-grouping 4 and 6 wheel coaches have any possibilities for those looking for Cambrian stock in 4mm/ft. The coaches are 105.2mm (4 wheel) and 129.2mm (6 wheel), or a scale 26.3 feet (4 wheel) and 32.3 feet (6 wheel). The details are at:

https://www.hattons.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=594&utm_campaign=mar-376-hattonsgenesisrender3%2Bartwork&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Klaviyo&_ke=eyJrbF9lbWFpbCI6ICJuY2JAbmNiLm5kby5jby51ayIsICJrbF9jb21wYW55X2lkIjogIkpHUWVYaCJ9

 

The Cambrian drawings I have at the moment are the 4 wheel coaches in Mike Morton Lloyd's Tanat Valley Light Railway and the 6 wheel coaches in an MML article in September 1964 Model Railway Constructor. The most obvious matches to me seem to be:

 

a) 5 compartment all-third 6 wheel coach; about 4' too long, but the right sort of look.

 

b) 6 wheel full brake; also about 4' too long, but very similar, the Cambrian upper panels are somewhat narrower than the Hatton's.

 

c) 4 wheel 4 compartment composite coach; about 9 inches too long but the right sort of look.

 

There are of course a load of other Cambrian coaches which might be better matches. Whatever, someone looking for a quick addition of some Cambrian might find something useful.

 

The simplest conversions might be to take the SR olive green versions, slosh some white over the upper panels if you want a pre-1909 look, some red over the brake ends for a pre-1911 look, then decorate with WRRC Cambrian transfers.

 

There are issues of detail. The Cambrian had a habit of sticking W irons outside the springs on some of its coaches, and the roof furniture may or may not be appropriate.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Nigel

[Nick Holliday]

Before anyone gets too carried away comparing 4 wheeled designs, Cambrian or any other, I'd check with Hatton's as to what the current overall length is. The figure of 102.5mm (26 feet) was quoted soon after the initial announcement. Subsequent advice prompted Hattons to go with a 28 feet long body (112mm) but they haven't changed the information on their website. I haven't been able to compare the latest images to see how they measure against the 32' 6 wheelers.

[Nick Holliday]

Nigel

Have a look at my post in page 53 of the Genesis saga. Some 32' Cambrian Railways designs.

[NCB]

Nick,

 

Where/what's the Genesis saga? Is there a link?

 

Cheers, Nigel

 

Edit: found it. Phew. Having in the past butchered Ratio 4 wheelers to make some "Cambrian" coaches, I can't see the problem with Hatton's coaches being generic.

Edited September 6, 2020 by NCB

[corneliuslundie]

So Brake 3rd 32 ft, 3rd 27 ft 10 in.

From my incomplete lists I can find 1891 32 ft Brake 3rds, Met Cam nos 210, 214 and 1885 28 ft 2 in. 3rds, nos  27, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, built at Oswestry. There are also a few builds of 28 ft 6 in. thirds. The Cambrian seems to have an objection to building two consecutive batches gthe same length!Mike LLoyd drew a 28 ft 6 in. third.

Jonathan

Edited September 7, 2020 by corneliuslundie
Added info on Mike Lloyd drawing

[Nick Holliday]

I can add some more numbers of vaguely appropriate designs from the drawings I have, undated unfortunately :

31' 1" Lav Composite 3-1-Lav-1-3 156 - 157

32' 0" Five compartment third 15,61,65,168,169,170-177,186,188,189,191-195,199,201,202,204,208,209

31' 10" Luggage composite 3-1-Lug-1-3 24-28,35,47

32' 0" Full brake 6,7,108,118-124,135-138,164,187,253-258,261-263

34' 0" Brake third 3-3-3-3-Brake (End duckets) 68,78,90

There were also some oddities - short bodies on 6 wheels

28' 6" Five compartment third 35,89,116,129,130,131,138,154,158,159,162,163

28' 1" Lav Composite 3-1-Lav-1-3 12,16,29,37,41

29'5" Luggage compo 3-1-Lug-1-3 148-153

[corneliuslundie]

Yes, I only listed those closest to the lengths of the two Hattons images and of the same compartment arrangement. My info is from Mountford's book on absorbed carriages. I shall look at your figures in more detail as I may be able to add a date or two.

Jonathan

[NCB]

Are all the above 6-wheel?

 

The MML drawings in MRC I mentioned are (all 6 wheel):

28'2" full brake, nos 135-137

32' tri-composite with luggage locker and toilet to each compartment, nos 210-215

29'6" tri-composite with luggage locker, nos 149-153

28'6" 5 compt all-third, nos 158-163

 

Nigel

[Nick Holliday]

All the ones I gave were shown as 6-wheel on the drawings. I haven't got a complete set of drawings, so there are plenty of gaps, such as the 28' 2" full brake.  I didn't bother with the 32' composite with luggage and toilets, as the end compartments were both coupes, with end windows, so the model would have little resemblance to the original. BTW my drawing only has numbers 210, 212 and 214.

[NCB]

Nick

 

The drawings you put up on the other thread triggered a memory; I have a drawing from the OPC list of 6 Cambrian carriages, namely 3 bogie and 3 6-wheel. The latter are:

a) 35' 6-compartment all third

b) 32'6" 5 compartment all third. This seems pretty close to the Hatton's equivalent.

c) 3'1" 4 compartment composite 1st/3rd with lavatory. This seems pretty close to the Hatton's equivalent.

 

I've no idea of the provenance of these drawings; they may be Cambrian or GWR. They're not as detailed as the usual (larger) G.A. drawings. The scale is stated as 1/4" to the foot; the actual scale as reproduced seems more like 1:62. The measurements I've given were written on the drawings.

 

Nigel

Edited September 8, 2020 by NCB

[RJS1977]

I know of at least five surviving Cambrian coaches (bodies only) in the Thames Valley area:

 

1. Wallingford Station, Cholsey & Wallingford Railway

2. Chinnor Station, Chinnor & Princes Risborough Railway

3. Amner's Farm, Amnerfield Miniature Railway

4. & 5. Swindon & Cricklade Railway

[Nick Holliday]

7 hours ago, NCB said:

Nick

 

The drawings you put up on the other thread triggered a memory; I have a drawing from the OPC list of 6 Cambrian carriages, namely 3 bogie and 3 6-wheel. The latter are:

a) 35' 6-compartment all third

b) 32'6" 5 compartment all third. This seems pretty close to the Hatton's equivalent.

c) 3'1" 4 compartment composite 1st/3rd with lavatory. This seems pretty close to the Hatton's equivalent.

 

I've no idea of the provenance of these drawings; they may be Cambrian or GWR. They're not as detailed as the usual (larger) G.A. drawings. The scale is stated as 1/4" to the foot; the actual scale as reproduced seems more like 1:62. The measurements I've given were written on the drawings.

 

Nigel

Nigel

I think I covered (b) and (c) in my list, and I didn't bother with (a) as the extra compartment and length would be too apparent.

[NCB]

6 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

Nigel

I think I covered (b) and (c) in my list, and I didn't bother with (a) as the extra compartment and length would be too apparent.

 

Yep I think (c) is the first on your list and (b) is the second on your list.

 

Re the drawing I have, I think the original drawings are Cambrian (some include 2nd class). They have notes scribbled on them obviously from a later date, I suspect by the GWR when it took the Cambrian over to work out what it had inherited. The drawings at this point seemed to have been grouped as 3 lots of 2. Then OPC (Russell) seemed to have copied them as a single drawing.

 

Nigel

[ChrisN]

A thought has just struck me.  Hattons do a 5 compartment 4 wheel third.  The Metro 1885 5 compartment 6 wheel third was of the same length.  Is a conversion possible, say by adding another wheel set?

[RJS1977]

It seems to me that the obvious (although expensive) option would be to buy a 4-wheel and a 6-wheel coach, and swap the bodies over.

 

Actually I could see there being a market for Hattons to release the 6-wheel chassis as a standalone as an aid to scratchbuilders.

[ChrisN]

3 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

It seems to me that the obvious (although expensive) option would be to buy a 4-wheel and a 6-wheel coach, and swap the bodies over.

 

Actually I could see there being a market for Hattons to release the 6-wheel chassis as a standalone as an aid to scratchbuilders.

 

The four wheel coach is shorter than the six wheel.  The Cambrian had both 28ft, (ish) and 32ft six wheel coaches.  It could be possible to add a centre axle but only if the coach was an oil top. It would be possible with gas tops but then as well as replacing all the gas tops you would need to hack away at the gas cylinder.  I suppose you could just shorten a six wheel chassis, but to be honest if I was doing that I would just make my own.  (I am looking for a quick solution.)