VIA Rail - 2020 to 2024 Corporate Plan Summary

[mdvle]

Recently published by VIA.

 

https://www.viarail.ca/sites/all/files/media/pdfs/About_VIA/our-company/corporate-plan/Summary_2020-2024_Corporate_Plan.pdf

 

 

[Theakerr]

Looks very much in line with the current political philosophy,  'say all the words' - then do nothing.  My wife and I wanted to take the train out to BC a couple of years ago.  We would have picked up the train at Sudbury due to where we live.  No secure parking either at the physical station or the downtown location and if we had used non Via secure parking in Sudbury we had to pay for a Taxi to take us out to the station and pick us up on the way back.  The list continues.  Reminded me of BR in the 60's when they were saying all the right things but appeared to be doing everything they could to put people off traveling by train.

[mdvle]

 

So as for a Covid-19 stimulus, 2 immediate problems.

 

First, government budgets are seriously stretched - given the extremely low interest rates it shouldn't matter, but there are those who like to proclaim doom whenever a government borrows so it will be a factor.

 

Second, the "best" choice for VIA doesn't create Canadian jobs unless Siemens could be encouraged to temporarily create a Canadian production line.

 

Alstom, who has inherited the Bombardier plants, doesn't have a product (and I think you want a proper North American design to get the extra space rather than using a European design).

 

CAF has the Viewliner II, but the production problems might scare VIA away.

 

Siemens is interesting.  Their Venture coaches (VIA, Brightline, and CALIDOT) are based off of the Viaggio coaches Siemens offers in Europe - and Siemens is building a sleeper variant of the Viaggio for Austrian Railway's Nightjet service.

 

So with the existing coach shell, and some sleeper experience, there is likely no reason Siemens couldn't offer a sleeper variation for VIA.  Dining also shouldn't be a problem, which only leaves dome and observation.  Siemens could perhaps do something like VIA's panorama cars as a dome equivalent, with the added bonus that they would be wheelchair accessible.  Observation could be a problem, at least with the classic Budd shape, but might not be that important to replace.

 

Siemens would also be the best choice in giving VIA a consistent fleet, making long term maintenance easier.

 

 

[mdvle]

On 12/11/2020 at 14:56, Theakerr said:

Looks very much in line with the current political philosophy,  'say all the words' - then do nothing.

 

In fairness to VIA, this is more of a broad outline of what they think the current and next few years state of the business is.

 

Actually doing anything on the listed issues requires government $$$, and until they get an idea the government is willing to fund something then there is no point spending money creating specifics.

 

[Nova Scotian]

51 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

So as for a Covid-19 stimulus, 2 immediate problems.

 

First, government budgets are seriously stretched - given the extremely low interest rates it shouldn't matter, but there are those who like to proclaim doom whenever a government borrows so it will be a factor.

 

Second, the "best" choice for VIA doesn't create Canadian jobs unless Siemens could be encouraged to temporarily create a Canadian production line.

 

Alstom, who has inherited the Bombardier plants, doesn't have a product (and I think you want a proper North American design to get the extra space rather than using a European design).

 

CAF has the Viewliner II, but the production problems might scare VIA away.

 

Siemens is interesting.  Their Venture coaches (VIA, Brightline, and CALIDOT) are based off of the Viaggio coaches Siemens offers in Europe - and Siemens is building a sleeper variant of the Viaggio for Austrian Railway's Nightjet service.

 

So with the existing coach shell, and some sleeper experience, there is likely no reason Siemens couldn't offer a sleeper variation for VIA.  Dining also shouldn't be a problem, which only leaves dome and observation.  Siemens could perhaps do something like VIA's panorama cars as a dome equivalent, with the added bonus that they would be wheelchair accessible.  Observation could be a problem, at least with the classic Budd shape, but might not be that important to replace.

 

Siemens would also be the best choice in giving VIA a consistent fleet, making long term maintenance easier.

 

 

Theoretically under various FTAs we would have open procurement. I can't think of a way that Via could get around that, but there's likely ways.

 

Agree you'd want a North American product - and also agree that Siemens would be the natural choice. Throw in some of their motive power too; a bunch more Chargers for use outside of the corridor.

Agree re. your comments on debt load. There has to be a breaking point, somewhere, on how much we borrow, but with interest cheap and the need so pressing it'd be good to use it for societal and environmental good (by society I mostly mean railfans...). 

 

Perhaps Siemens could be persuaded to build in US, and undertake fit + finishing and all maintenance in Canada? There's lots of facilities knocking around (IRSI's old facility in Moncton is currently manufacturing freight cars...), but there can't be many tooled up with the skilled workforce available for modern, stressed skin, laser cut etc, and the market surely can't support more than one major manufacturer (Bombardier)? 

 

So, sounds like you and I should write a letter to Via suggesting this - maybe Transport Canada too. Find some money kicking around somewhere. 

[Regularity]

11 hours ago, mdvle said:

given the extremely low interest rates it shouldn't matter, but there are those who like to proclaim doom whenever a government borrows so it will be a factor

Probably because at some point in time, you do need to repay the money you borrowed.

 

I am not one of those who proclaim doom every time a government borrows money (particularly as the need is so pressing right now), but the interest rate is only part of the issue: even if rates were at 0%, the more you borrow, the bigger your debt becomes. 

[dibber25]

Very much aspirational. There's no way of making CN play ball over schedules. VIA 1 & 2 have become so unreliable that I don't involve them in any of my holiday plans now. It seems to me that VIA makes problems where it need not. Look at the great fuss over not being able to turn the Ocean at Halifax! . There's then a lengthy description of running a couple of locos round. It's been the norm in countless countries for a century as most don't have the space for triangles on which to turn a whole train. This year, some 'corridor' trains have been run as push-pull with a loco  either end. Something that could have been done long ago. They still run with a second engineer in the cab, so coupling and uncoupling to split trains is routine. I understood there was an order with Siemens for stock based on the Brightline equipment, to replace LRC cars? Is that not happening now? I appreciate that there's a need to replace the Nightstar stock with something more reliable though I found these very much more comfortable than the HEP stock when I travelled in 2012. I do think that as the the Nation's flagship train service, the Canadian really needs some  new equipment. When I last used it in 2014 it certainly wasn't worth  the  money. Not only was the sleeping car noisy, it rode badly at speed, the train ran late and ran out of food because of its lateness. As a publicity tool it looks s well worn with some cars being a mass of patches from repeated modification and the symmetry of the train ruined by the dreary brown letter boards on the Prestige cars. The tail dome car was the best place on the train and that is now denied to all but a handful of passengers. Ironically I preferred my ride on 185/6 Sudbury-White River and back. Expectation is minimal as you're told in advance that there's no food service on board, running over CP tracks the time-keeping is better and the cost at just C$35 each way was absurdly cheap. (CJL)

 

[dibber25]

Perhaps the most telling point is the tiny percentage of passengers who deliver the substantial portion of revenue. That is presumably the tourists who pay through the nose for travel on the Canadian. That is unsustainable because few of those passengers will return, when they miss their connection/flight/cruise because of the same late running that other passengers have paid much less for. (CJL)

[mdvle]

7 hours ago, Regularity said:

Probably because at some point in time, you do need to repay the money you borrowed.

 

I am not one of those who proclaim doom every time a government borrows money (particularly as the need is so pressing right now), but the interest rate is only part of the issue: even if rates were at 0%, the more you borrow, the bigger your debt becomes. 

 

The key at the moment is that Canada has a minority government (with the Conservatives and the Bloc itching for an election, and so far the NDP propping up the Liberals.

 

Now add in the change in leadership in the US, and all we will be hearing about in the media for the next 4 years will be how terrible deficits are as the Republicans rediscover their aversion to them.

 

This is going to make it difficult regardless of who is running things in Canada.

[Regularity]

Interesting, but nothing do with the cost of borrowing.

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, dibber25 said:

Very much aspirational. There's no way of making CN play ball over schedules.

 

There are probably ways - for example while Amtrak can have troubles they don't seem to have anything like the troubles VIA has with the Canadian.

 

The real question is whether any Canadian government wants to deal with the issue, and so far the answer has been no.

 

1 hour ago, dibber25 said:

Look at the great fuss over not being able to turn the Ocean at Halifax! . There's then a lengthy description of running a couple of locos round. It's been the norm in countless countries for a century as most don't have the space for triangles on which to turn a whole train.

 

The only reason the Ocean was such a big fuss was because of the Park car (observation), which needs to be turned, and the Renaissance coaches (with single direction seating) that also needed to be turned.

 

The solution has been to eliminate the Park car, which will disappoint a lot of people, and eliminate the Renaissance coaches (using Budd equipment taken from the Canadian).  The only Renaissance equipment remaining is there for accessibility reasons.

 

1 hour ago, dibber25 said:

This year, some 'corridor' trains have been run as push-pull with a loco  either end. Something that could have been done long ago.

 

Change can be hard.  There are a lot of people, frequently who have never done it, who refuse on principal to travel backwards.

 

Yes, the commuter trains do it, but that is (usually) for much shorter timed trips.

 

Just like there was a lot of moaning and complaining when VIA recently stopped accepting cash onboard for food and drinks.

 

1 hour ago, dibber25 said:

I understood there was an order with Siemens for stock based on the Brightline equipment, to replace LRC cars? Is that not happening now?

 

Still happening, and is now expected a bit earlier than the contract specified.  Siemens entry into North America has been executed very well, with both the Charger family of locos and the Venture coaches (aka Viaggio in Europe) being reliable with very few teething problems.

 

These will be sets with Charger locos and Cab cars for bidirectional service.

 

1 hour ago, dibber25 said:

I appreciate that there's a need to replace the Nightstar stock with something more reliable though I found these very much more comfortable than the HEP stock when I travelled in 2012.

 

While VIA has said nothing officially, the online community reports are that the Renaissance (ex-Nightstar) equipment is suffering from bad corrosion issues.

 

1 hour ago, dibber25 said:

I do think that as the the Nation's flagship train service, the Canadian really needs some  new equipment.

 

While I agree, the problem is that for too many the Canadian is the Budd consist and that causes issues.

 

But the bigger question is whether the government wants to spend billions of dollars buying a new train that is essentially a rail cruise - someone needs to crunch some numbers to see what sort of tax revenue and other spin-offs the tourists bring to Canada to try and make a case for it.

 

And in the meantime, it merely joins a list of other expensive items that VIA would like to spend money on.

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, Regularity said:

Interesting, but nothing do with the cost of borrowing.

 

In terms of dollars, no.

 

In terms of the cost political capital, yes.

 

Replacing the corridor fleet (Toronto-Montreal-Ottawa) which is something like 98% of VIA's passenger numbers cost $1.4 billion (purchase price plus 15 year maintenance support) and that is replacing a fleet of around 140 coaches.

 

The Canadian and Ocean are around 180 cars - add in not just the greater number by the more specialized nature of dining, sleepers, and dome, plus the passage of time and you are likely looking at $2 billion.  That is a lot of money, and political capitial, to spend on trains that will be portrayed by the opposition as a cruise for a few foreigners.

 

(and then there is the $2b to $4b VIA wants to spend to build it's own dedicated railway between Toronto and Ottawa).

[Nova Scotian]

1 hour ago, mdvle said:

 

While VIA has said nothing officially, the online community reports are that the Renaissance (ex-Nightstar) equipment is suffering from bad corrosion issues.

 

 

I've seen coaches with large patches of paint peeling away, with at least surface corrosion underneath. Could be worse. Also semi-regularly one or two renaissance coaches pulled off and left in a siding - made me question the reliability (but have no insider info to know whether it was planned to leave them there or not!)

[dibber25]

I believe one of the reasons given for the withdrawal of the Mk4  coaching stock in the UK is corrosion issues. They are, in any case, being replaced by the bi-mode IEP units. The Mk4 was the coach from which the Nightstar stock was developed. The Nightstar stock is younger than the Mk4s but has been subjected to rather more extreme conditions for which it was not built. (CJL)

[mdvle]

VIA's posted 3rd Quarter results indicates the Covid-19 has created delays in the Siemens order, potentially causing problems in 2 years time when delivery is/was expected. (page 16)

 

https://media.viarail.ca/sites/default/files/publications/Q3 Report 2020_VIA Rail_EN.pdf