WTT headcode help required

[ba14eagle]

I am looking for help from anyone who might own a Western Region Passenger working timetable for the latter part of 1973 to early 1974, covering the Bristol / Westbury area.

I need confirmation of some headcodes.

I have seen a headcode of 4O22 for a Bristol to Salisbury parcels train - is this correct for the period? I have also seen suggestions that 6B07 might be correct, although it doesnt ring true with me.

Also, I am looking for a Weymouth to Bristol passenger service - were all 2V61 as ive seen in photos? Also, a local Westbury to Bristol passenger headcode would be useful.

many thanks in advance

[ba14eagle]

Seems that 4B07 was a Paddington to Bristol parcels.

[SP Steve]

I can get you as close as April 1972 if it's of any use - the following were all M-F services:

 

2V52    06:24 Weymouth - Bristol TM

2V52    16:05 Weymouth - Bristol TM

2V52    17:43 Weymouth - Bristol TM

 

4O10   05:05 Bristol TM - Salisbury Parcels

 

2B10    06:35 Westbury - Bristol TM

2B14    07:25 Westbury - Bristol TM

 

[Flood]

October 1976 - the following were all M-F services:

 

2V55    06:08 Weymouth - Bristol TM (DMU)

2V57    07:10 Weymouth - Bristol TM (DMU)

2V61    10:05 Weymouth - Bristol TM (Loco)

2V63    12:15 Weymouth - Bristol TM (DMU)

2V66    16:15 Weymouth - Cardiff (DMU)

2V70    17:45 Weymouth - Bristol TM (DMU)

2V72    19:40 Weymouth - Bristol TM (Loco)

 

4O21   05:05 Bristol TM - Salisbury Parcels

 

2B08    06:30 Westbury - Bristol TM (DMU)

2B51    16:35 Westbury - Severn Beach (DMU)

[WillCav]

I used to be in timetabling in the early 2000s. Many of the rules for headcodes had been around for decades (as had many of my very knowledgeable colleagues).

 

Cross border trains from one region to another had a specific letter as below depending on the region of its destination

Western V

Southern O

Eastern E

Scotland S

Midland M

 

Other letters were used for trains starting and terminating in the same region. Some letters were not used in various areas as some train describers couldn't show some letters - I was led to believe that was why W wasn't used for western.

 

So 6B07 being a Weymouth train would be unlikely.

 

Thanks

 

Will

[TheSignalEngineer]

Up to the early/mid 1970s it was common to use the same code for all class 2 trains having the same origin, destination and routing. In the mid 1970s this was mostly changed to a line having odd numbers in one direction and even in the other, 2B71 would be followed by 2B73 etc. On a busy line when the numbers got to 99 they started again.

IIRC it was an accounting driven move roughly coinciding with changes to financial support after the Local Government upheaval in 1974 and money for local services being allocated by councils and PTEs under a 'Contract' agreement with BR.

Edited January 13, 2021 by TheSignalEngineer

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Up to the early/mid 1970s it was common to use the same code for all class 2 trains having the same origin, destination and routing. In the mid 1970s this was mostly changed to a line having odd numbers in one direction and even in the other, 2B71 would be followed by 2B73 etc. On a busy line when the numbers got to 99 they started again.

IIRC it was an accounting driven move roughly coinciding with changes to financial support after the Local Government upheaval in 1974 and money for local services being allocated by councils and PTEs under a 'Contract' agreement with BR.

There were indeed considerable changes in the the 1970s where what originally amounted to 'route codes' for Class 2 trains were changed to individual train numbers along the lines in which Class1 trains had originally been numbered.  And it was definitely an accounting driven move in connection with the 1974 changes to the way financial support was allocated to various services.

 

The next change came later and that was the move to ensuring that no two trains carrying the same number should appear in the control area of any one signal box at the same time - that was done to enable ARs to have extra functionality.  The next (and to date the final) change after that - a mixture in this case of both ARS and accounting requirements was to ensure that no two trains passing over the same route on the same day had the same 4 digit ID (although prior to that the full 7 digit number could cater to a limited extent for trains with the same 4 digit ID.   That change was the one that finally broke down the use of original destination area letters in many areas.

[GERARDTCC]

Mister C who is not an RM Web member has asked me to post this : 

This has come to my attention and I can provide the answers from the book of arrivals and departures of trains at Bristol Temple Meads May 1973.

 

4O22 was 1150 Bristol Temple Meads to Salisbury parcels (there was also a 4O21 dep 0430)

6B07 was 1547 Paddington to Bristol Kingsland Road parcels, the loco ran onto Bath Road as 5B65 if conveying any enparts vans.

2V61 was 1005 Weymouth to Bristol which was a hauled train hence appearing in photographs.

The DMU Weymouth arrivals at Bristol were 0554 2V55, 1215 2V63, 1605 2V67, 1745 2V70.

1930 ex Weymouth was also hauled and was 2V72.

The only Westbury starters were 0630 2B10 and 1635 to Severn Beach 2B51 (all Severn Beach trains were 2B51).

Hauled trains to Weymouth were 0535 2O51 and 1600 2O60.

DMUs to Weymouth were 0808 2O53, 0905 Cardiff 2O56, 1208 2O58, 1745 2O61, 2008 2O62.

Other trains you may want to know about were 1240 Bristol-Yeovil parcels 4B15 returning as 4B16 1610 ex Yeovil and 1722 Portsmouth-Bristol parcels 4V30.

[Steadfast]

On 13/01/2021 at 13:55, The Stationmaster said:

The next change came later and that was the move to ensuring that no two trains carrying the same number should appear in the control area of any one signal box at the same time

Shame that's no longer followed Mike, I had two 7C59s between Merehead and Westbury a few months back (One up, one down), both got confused on TRUST, reporting as each other and having a few 'no reports' because TRUST thought that one had jumped ahead when it was actually the other one picking up. 

 

Jo

[caradoc]

11 hours ago, Steadfast said:

Shame that's no longer followed Mike, I had two 7C59s between Merehead and Westbury a few months back (One up, one down), both got confused on TRUST, reporting as each other and having a few 'no reports' because TRUST thought that one had jumped ahead when it was actually the other one picking up. 

 

Jo

 

Were they both booked WTT trains ? Regardless, that absolutely should not happen, hopefully NR Control would also pick that up and do something about it ?

 

[Steadfast]

One was a WTT, one either VSTP or STP as it was a wagon move between quarries via run round at Westbury. Light 59s are usually 0F59, so even a 7F59 would've made sense

 

Jo

[KeithMacdonald]

Can anyone recommend a good online source of WTT's for the Western Region c.1965-1970?

 

Thanks in advance.

[ba14eagle]

On 19/01/2021 at 01:57, Steadfast said:

Shame that's no longer followed Mike, I had two 7C59s between Merehead and Westbury a few months back (One up, one down), both got confused on TRUST, reporting as each other and having a few 'no reports' because TRUST thought that one had jumped ahead when it was actually the other one picking up. 

 

Jo

I had 2 1L16's on the panel at the same time last Winter - less than 1 mile apart -  One a diverted Swansea to Padd (on the East chord), the other was a Exeter to Waterloo (might be the other way around), changing ends in the station - both Sunday diversions.

[ba14eagle]

On 17/01/2021 at 23:26, GERARDTCC said:

Mister C who is not an RM Web member has asked me to post this : 

This has come to my attention and I can provide the answers from the book of arrivals and departures of trains at Bristol Temple Meads May 1973.

 

4O22 was 1150 Bristol Temple Meads to Salisbury parcels (there was also a 4O21 dep 0430)

6B07 was 1547 Paddington to Bristol Kingsland Road parcels, the loco ran onto Bath Road as 5B65 if conveying any enparts vans.

2V61 was 1005 Weymouth to Bristol which was a hauled train hence appearing in photographs.

The DMU Weymouth arrivals at Bristol were 0554 2V55, 1215 2V63, 1605 2V67, 1745 2V70.

1930 ex Weymouth was also hauled and was 2V72.

The only Westbury starters were 0630 2B10 and 1635 to Severn Beach 2B51 (all Severn Beach trains were 2B51).

Hauled trains to Weymouth were 0535 2O51 and 1600 2O60.

DMUs to Weymouth were 0808 2O53, 0905 Cardiff 2O56, 1208 2O58, 1745 2O61, 2008 2O62.

Other trains you may want to know about were 1240 Bristol-Yeovil parcels 4B15 returning as 4B16 1610 ex Yeovil and 1722 Portsmouth-Bristol parcels 4V30.

Many thanks for the info.

I didnt know about the Yeovil parcels headcodes - very useful