USATC railway operations and stock in Britain & Europe

[Nearholmer]

Discuss.

 

A list of pertinent book and models, plus links to sites with photos/accounts might be a good places to start.

 

Personally, having the Tourret book, I'm switched-on to the locos, but far less so to the stock that was supplied from the US.

[Johann Marsbar]

The US Army Transportation Museum at Fort Eustis has one of the 4 wheel vans on display (as well as something else from Europe..)

 

 

...whilst one of the USATC bogie Gondola wagons is preserved at Bochum - Dahlhausen Railway museum....

 

[Tony Cane]

Steam days No 20, Oct-Nov 1990, has 6 pages of pictures of the USATC 0-6-0t locomotives, but more importantly seven pictures of the USATC wagons.

Steam Days 24, June-July 1991, has an article by a wartime driver with details of the USATC wagons in regular use on the railway, dimensioned diagrams of three of the wagon types, and details of the nearly 5,000 wagons built and in store in the UK as of the 8th May 1944.

 

Continental Modeller of Nov and Dec 1994  have articles on the USATC wagons including drawings of four of the 4 wheel wagons, and mostly post war pictures.

 

The bogie petrol tank, refrigerator and flat cars were in regular use, the box vans were considered to be too flimsy for general use, and be returned in good order for their primary use of supporting the invasion of Europe.  All would have been moved in block trains to the docks for “export” to the continent.

[Allegheny1600]

Rolling stock, you say?

Roco have made numerous USATC wagons available over the years, as have Fleischmann and I believe, Kleinbahn but some, many, all of the Kleinbahn models may have been under scale.

Curiously, Roco subsequently acquired these ranges and have reissued some of the better models.

There may have been the odd vehicle in various of the former Italian manufacturers but I don’t know any particulars.

All of these are H0 scale, naturally, I know literally nothing about N scale.

Check out the British H0 Society website under USATC and also the UK-Continent section: http://www.british-ho.com

Also check: http://www.modellbau-wiki.de/wiki/USATC

But that looks like only the locos, sorry.

Cheers,

John

[jonhall]

Workshop van (photographed at Shackerstone but its moved at least twice since.

 

USA flat at Stoomcentrum Maldegem

 

 

A couple of tankers at the museum at Speyer

[hmrspaul]

Another USATC WD Tank https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/iranrailway/e20626f81

 

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/usaarmyopen

 

Paul

[Nearholmer]

Many thanks for the wagon links/photos.

 

We seem to have two different types of tank car, not only different number of domes, but distinctly different underframes.

 

[Nearholmer]

https://historylink101.com/wwII_b-w/d-day/supplies2/IMG_4265.html

 

Interesting picture. Look at the buffers on the left-hand wagon. They seem to have plates fixed to them to compensate for a the height of the headstock above rail level. And, what is the left-hand wagon? Its got jacks to allow loading of AFVs, but I don't think its a warflat.

 

And this is very interesting, even if it doesn't have any diagrams. https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc9950/m1/7/

Edited February 1, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Tony Cane]

9 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Interesting picture. Look at the buffers on the left-hand wagon. They seem to have plates fixed to them to compensate for a the height of the headstock above rail level. And, what is the left-hand wagon? Its got jacks to allow loading of AFVs, but I don't think its a warflat.

The loading ramps had such extreme changes in angle to allow loading at all states of the tide that plates were needed to prevent vertical locking of the buffer heads.

 

Both wagons are USA flats, a close copy of the British warflat. There main use was to carry Sherman tanks and other AFVs. This was possible on the continent but not in the UK due to loading gauge restrictions. They could carry British tanks in the UK but the brakes were considered to be inadequate and required pairing with a UK warflat if so used. Many were re-designated USA Case wagons and used to transport the enormous number of American vehicles, including two part Shermans that were arriving in crates.

 

When they checked the clearances in the hull of the LST,the vessel shown in the picture, they found that only the 4 wheel and low bogie vehicles could be carried.

 

It is believed that the Germans did not think that a sustained second front could could be maintained as railways were need to move the vast tonnages of supplies, and we did not have many rail ferries. They did not envisage the innovation to convert the LSTs. By December 1944, 1523 locomotives and 19,383 wagons had been sent across the channel.

[phil_sutters]

Don't forget the petrol dump at Highbridge, with its allocation of USA 0-6-0Ts. 

Edited February 1, 2021 by phil_sutters

[Nearholmer]

Ah, so the plates on the buffers were only fitted for loading/unloading?

 

7 minutes ago, Tony Cane said:

Both wagons are USA flats, a close copy of the British warflat.

 

I've always thought that the warflat, and its WW1 predecessors, looked very American in design anyway, so wonder whether the whole evolution of these things had a "to and fro across the Atlantic" element to it.

 

Now, if like me you are into 0 scale, how about a very expensive lego kit for one? https://www.brickmania.com/usatc-40-foot-flat-car-1-48th-scale-brick-railroad-kit/  No, I don't think so.

 

 

[Bernard Lamb]

I new a chap who was a driver in the army during the war. He always had an interest in railways and went on to be an engine driver and was posted to Berlin in 1946 at Grunewald. He told me some fascinating stories. However to keep on topic. One regular job was to collect Reginald Denning from one of the London main stations and take him to a meeting or to his club for lunch. He would wait and then take him back. He always got a tip of ten bob and thought that Denning was a rather nice chap*. In early 1944 they made a longer trip- out to the Hainault Loop. Soon these trips became regular and the wagons started to arrive in kit form and slowly the wagons were assembled and the loop began to fill. He was one of a few outsiders who had a direct insight as to what was going on.

 

* To back up that story Denning asked to be demoted form General in order that he could actually take part in the D Day landings and see his project through to its conclusion. This request was denied.

Bernard 

[Tony Cane]

57 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Ah, so the plates on the buffers were only fitted for loading/unloading?

This picture shows the extent of the problem.

[Fat Controller]

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Ah, so the plates on the buffers were only fitted for loading/unloading?

 

 

I've always thought that the warflat, and its WW1 predecessors, looked very American in design anyway, so wonder whether the whole evolution of these things had a "to and fro across the Atlantic" element to it.

 

Now, if like me you are into 0 scale, how about a very expensive lego kit for one? https://www.brickmania.com/usatc-40-foot-flat-car-1-48th-scale-brick-railroad-kit/  No, I don't think so.

 

 

Partially a case of 'form follows function', and partially a result of Samson Fox, of Leeds Forge, spending several years in the States, developing the flanged pressed-steel structure, which he had patented in the 1880s. There had been little interest in the UK, but the Americans adopted the idea with alacrity. So, as so often, a British idea was commercialised in the USA, and is now thought of as 'American'

[Talltim]

ACME have made an HO model of the Whitcombe  65-DE-14 which was ordered by the British from Baldwin, who subcontracted to Whitcomb. These were uses in North Africa and Italy, with some remaining in service with the FS after the war

Piko are producing an HO model of the Whitcomb 65DE19a which was built for the USATC

[D9020 Nimbus]

19 hours ago, Allegheny1600 said:

Roco have made numerous USATC wagons available over the years, as have Fleischmann and I believe, Kleinbahn but some, many, all of the Kleinbahn models may have been under scale.

Klein Modellbahn, not Kleinbahn. Roco did indeed acquire the Klein Modellbahn range.

 

[Tony Cane]

23 hours ago, Allegheny1600 said:

but some, many, all of the Kleinbahn models may have been under scale.

I have at least one of each of the USATC wagons in HO scale from effectively two sources, as detailed in the British HO web page. The principle dimensions match those in the official diagrams to within a fraction of a millimetre.

[Tony Cane]

Probably the most significant, and well documented, use of the USATC wagons in the UK during WWII was that of the bogie petrol tank wagons. A total of 500 are recorded as being in service supply aviation fuel to the air bases in East Anglia. A 1000 bomber raid required the equivalent of 650 tank wagons of fuel.

While an HO model in USATC livery has been produced a quite accurate 4mm scale model can be kit bashed from an Athearn tank wagon or two.

The pictures below show both models and a direct comparison of the two. The Athearn kit provides all but the minor details, the main work being the splicing of the tank parts.

Comparison of the picture of the prototype with the HO model shows that the domes are a couple of mm too tall. The 4mm kit bash gets this right but the domes are 1mm too large in diameter. The wagon has two domes due to UK loading gauge restrictions. For use in the UK some minor modifications were needed to the as built wagons. The brakes were improved, but I do not think this was readily visible, and siphon pipes were added to comply with UK unloading practices. Visibly this modification is a short length of pipe close too and to the outside of the each dome.

If others are interested in creating these USATC tank cars in 4mm scale I can post further details.

[Nearholmer]

Very useful pictures, thanks.

 

For coarse-0, which is what I run, I maybe able to get away with using some of the slightly better quality things from Lionel et al for the tank wagon and flatcar.

 

Was the tank 40ft too - it looks longer?

[Tony Cane]

25 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

 

Was the tank 40ft too - it looks longer?

The diagram has the tank length at 37ft 2 3/8 inch

[Allegheny1600]

Courtesy of my friend, Andrew E. some nuggets for your edification;

https://history.army.mil/html/reference/Normandy/TS/TC/TC-6.htm
It might be best to only read pages 285 to 287, the whole thing is quite long.

However, if you want it;

https://history.army.mil/html/reference/Normandy/techsvcs.html
Cheers,

John.

[Bernard Lamb]

On 02/02/2021 at 23:03, Allegheny1600 said:

Courtesy of my friend, Andrew E. some nuggets for your edification;

https://history.army.mil/html/reference/Normandy/TS/TC/TC-6.htm
It might be best to only read pages 285 to 287, the whole thing is quite long.

However, if you want it;

https://history.army.mil/html/reference/Normandy/techsvcs.html
Cheers,

John.

That highlights just how well prepared we were for the invasion.

My interests are further east and in that area our railway troops were in Germany before VE Day and a detachment of railway signals people set up camp in Magdeburg in early May 1945.

If you consider the state of the tracks with what we had not destroyed being sabotaged by the retreating Germans it was incredible how quickly services were restored. To the extent that the SNCF could take over in September 1944.

Claiming rolling stock was widespread and I have heard stories of railway men in Belgium waiting at the border with stencils to mark up any foreign stock and even a case of the Americans changing the insignia on one of our Austerities.

Bernard