Mystery Great Western Great Central loction. Can you help.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

This apeared on a Unidentified photos of the British Isles Group | Facebook group page what looks like a Great Central Train with a GWR Dean single behind the lead engine. I am curious to know the location as well as why the GWR loco?

 

David

[Western Star]

The photo seems to show an "inner-city" location...  with suggestions of industry close by...  with a station that has (at least) two island platforms - those thoughts make me feel that the location is not on the pre-grouping GWR (the water crane with water tank atop may be a clue to the company that owns the infrastructure).

 

I am inclined to suggest Leicester.

 

regards, Graham

[great central]

1 hour ago, Western Star said:

The photo seems to show an "inner-city" location...  with suggestions of industry close by...  with a station that has (at least) two island platforms - those thoughts make me feel that the location is not on the pre-grouping GWR (the water crane with water tank atop may be a clue to the company that owns the infrastructure).

 

I am inclined to suggest Leicester.

 

regards, Graham

 

I was thinking Leicester as well, with the water cranes with a balance pipe between them. Most likely the south end of the station. 

 

Edit: there's a couple of pictures on this page which look likely

http://www.gcrleicester.info/html/leicester_central1.html

Edited February 2, 2021 by great central
Add last paragraph

[keefer]

Thought I'd check disused-stations for matching views of Leicester Central - they actually have the same photo, taken in 1910 and from the John Alsop Collection

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/l/leicester_central/index12.shtml

[rodent279]

Going from the distinctive look of that slender spire, I'd say that's St Mary de Castro church, barely 400m from the south end of the platforms at Leicester Central.

 

 

[Butler Henderson]

Clearly a Newcastle/York/Sheffield-Swindon/Swansea/Bournemouth. Possibly the GC loco is has come onto the train with the single in order to work it south to Woodford Halse. Locos on such trains were changed at Leicester or Nottingham with GW locos, with one notable exception, working south of those stations.

 

[rodent279]

I knew GW engines worked as far as Leics & Nottingham, but I didn't know Dean Singles did. I assumed it was always Halls, Saints, may be 4-4-0's.

[Butler Henderson]

The GC loco is either a 11A 4-4-0 (LNER D6) which were built for the opening of the London Extension in 1897 through Leicester, or a 11B (LNER D9) introduced from 1901. Would have thought the well built route would have been ideal for the singles.

 

[rodent279]

Raises the interesting question of whether any ex-broad gauge convertibles worked onto the GC, as if they did, this would surely constitute the furthest north worked by a BG engine, even if it was converted to standard gauge.

[adb968008]

7 hours ago, David Bigcheeseplant said:

This apeared on a Unidentified photos of the British Isles Group | Facebook group page what looks like a Great Central Train with a GWR Dean single behind the lead engine. I am curious to know the location as well as why the GWR loco?

 

David

I wonder what the story is unfolding there..

the locos, both blowing off, are clearly ready to go, the footplate crewman on the GW loco has his elbow folded as if impatient, looks like the other is looking back from the footplate too.

meanwhile on the platform the guy with the bike, whats he planning to do with it, as its a compartment not a brake.. another guys blocking the door, as well as a platform or guard staff member involved...

 

lucky exposed photograph, must be a good day as no ones really blurred yet they wont be composed for the picture.. perhaps the reason for the picture was the combo pairing ?

 

what happened to our roads and railways that took away such pride in appearance.. perfect neat track, uncluttered smooth platform and edges

Edited February 2, 2021 by adb968008

[rodent279]

And another question, though not directly related to this photo; where, and under what circumstances, would locos of different companies be seen coupled together on a service train?

By different companies I mean extant companies, not pre-grouping constituent companies locos working on the same system post grouping, or B4 locos coupled together on BR.

For example, did GWR & LMS locos ever double head on service trains before nationalisation? Did say Caledonian and North British locos ever double head? Are there any other unlikely combinations that could have happened?

[great central]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I wonder what the story is unfolding there..

the locos, both blowing off, are clearly ready to go, the footplate crewman on the GW loco has his elbow folded as if impatient, looks like the other is looking back from the footplate too.

meanwhile on the platform the guy with the bike, whats he planning to do with it, as its a compartment not a brake.. another guys blocking the door, as well as a platform or guard staff member involved...

 

lucky exposed photograph, must be a good day as no ones really blurred yet they wont be composed for the picture.. perhaps the reason for the picture was the combo pairing ?

 

what happened to our roads and railways that took away such pride in appearance.. perfect neat track, uncluttered smooth platform and edges

 

Hmm, I wonder if the bloke with the bike is being like his modern day counterpart?

'I'll put my bike where it jolly well suits me, not where you're telling me it must go!'

Hasten to add that not all cyclists are like that, it's usually the lycra clad ones who think they're somehow superior to a mere railway servant. I've had quite a few like that.

As for the pride in the railway's appearance, the line was barely 10 years old then, labour was cheap and plentiful to allow for cleaning and such. Nowadays everything's counted to the penny by bean counters who see every little thing as extra cost. We have an excellent team who do our best but so often frustrated by the money people, very few of whom know what actually happens at the sharp end.

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, rodent279 said:

I knew GW engines worked as far as Leics & Nottingham, but I didn't know Dean Singles did. I assumed it was always Halls, Saints, may be 4-4-0's.

 

Well, the GC's Banbury Branch opened in 1900 so something had to work the through trains before the advent of the classes you mention! There are a number of photos of Achilles class singles at Leicester so they were evidently the usual engines on these trains. I don't think I've seen a photo of any other Dean class their, or any at Nottingham.

 

In the early days of the Banbury line, how many through services were there? And which shed were the singles based at?

[The Lurker]

11 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

The GC loco is either a 11A 4-4-0 (LNER D6) which were built for the opening of the London Extension in 1897 through Leicester, or a 11B (LNER D9) introduced from 1901. Would have thought the well built route would have been ideal for the singles.

 

The Great Central had some of their own, designed by Pollitt for the London extension. Per the LNER encyclopedia, they were the only remaining 4-2-2s in service at grouping. According to the same source they had been moved off the London extension work by 1903 however.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, The Lurker said:

The Great Central had some of their own, designed by Pollitt for the London extension. Per the LNER encyclopedia, they were the only remaining 4-2-2s in service at grouping. According to the same source they had been moved off the London extension work by 1903 however.

 

Class 13. Very handsome machines:

 

 

Pretty much the same dimensions as Johnson's final series of singles, the 2601 or Princess of Wales Class, with which they were contemporary, and which likewise had five years or so in the limelight on the Midland's London Extension. The Pollitt singles found a niche on the fast but lightly-loaded Cheshire Lines Liverpool-Manchester expresses; another flat route. They were rather larger than the Achilles class, which were a slightly older design.

 

 

[adb968008]

14 hours ago, rodent279 said:

And another question, though not directly related to this photo; where, and under what circumstances, would locos of different companies be seen coupled together on a service train?

 

Loco failure ?

Would the GW have a spare loco on hand that far north ?

Failures must surely have happened, GW engines are known to be often poor steamers with the wrong coal! (Controversial) . Would they have left it behind, candeled the train, or somekind of rescue “hire” a GC engine and assisted it back

 

Where-ever it originated, it didnt need water as it pulled up short of the tower.

 

The picture gives me that “late running train” feel about it.

Edited February 3, 2021 by adb968008

[Blandford1969]

Late to the party, but definitely Leicester Central.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Loco failure ?

Would the GW have a spare loco on hand that far north ?

Failures must surely have happened, GW engines are known to be often poor steamers with the wrong coal! (Controversial) . Would they have left it behind, candeled the train, or somekind of rescue “hire” a GC engine and assisted it back

 

Where-ever it originated, it didnt need water as it pulled up short of the tower.

 

The picture gives me that “late running train” feel about it.

 

The working of the Achilles class to Leicester was a daily routine; the engine wouldn't have worked north of Leicester. It will have been coaled at its home shed with sufficient for the round trip. After arriving with a northbound train it will have turned and taken water at the turntable on the east side of the station. I suggest that either the train is unusually heavy, calling for a pilot engine (per @Butler Henderson's comment), or possibly there's some path-saving with this double-heading taking the place of a light engine move. Both engines must just have come onto the train. 

 

Between Leicester and Banbury this is a Great Central train being worked by a Great Western engine, rather than a Great Western train exercising running powers, so I don't think hire of an assisting engine would come into it. The solid fenders on the Achilles' tender date the photo to after 1903 I think, and the leading carriage is in the Great Central's brown and cream livery - and has been for a some time - pushing the date further forward - 1905 at least?

 

15 hours ago, rodent279 said:

And another question, though not directly related to this photo; where, and under what circumstances, would locos of different companies be seen coupled together on a service train?

 

I can't think of any regular circumstance. Even what we see in this photo is, I think, unusual. One would need to look for similar cases where a foreign engine regularly worked a through train over a considerable distance on the home company's lines. 

 

16 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Did say Caledonian and North British locos ever double head? 

 

What a suggestion! 

[The Stationmaster]

21 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Raises the interesting question of whether any ex-broad gauge convertibles worked onto the GC, as if they did, this would surely constitute the furthest north worked by a BG engine, even if it was converted to standard gauge.

Broad gauge convertibles got a lot further north than the usual engine change locations of Leicester and Nottingham on the GCR.  Don't forget the GWR went all the way to Birkenhead and ran through to Warrington and Manchester although I doubt any convertibles ever made Manchester.

 

18 hours ago, rodent279 said:

And another question, though not directly related to this photo; where, and under what circumstances, would locos of different companies be seen coupled together on a service train?

By different companies I mean extant companies, not pre-grouping constituent companies locos working on the same system post grouping, or B4 locos coupled together on BR.

For example, did GWR & LMS locos ever double head on service trains before nationalisation? Did say Caledonian and North British locos ever double head? Are there any other unlikely combinations that could have happened?

SR and GWR engines regularly worked coupled between Barnstaple and Ifracombe although whether that went back to Pre Group days I don't know..

[Compound2632]

I have to say that the first time I saw a photo of an Achilles at Leicester I was nearly as confused as when I first discovered the LNER at Wrexham!

[The Lurker]

12 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

.

 

SR and GWR engines regularly worked coupled between Barnstaple and Ifracombe although whether that went back to Pre Group days I don't know..

i have a picture of a GWR mogul coupled to a T9 at Exeter Central (in Southern Railway Album - P Ransome-Waliis, which handily happens to be in the office where I am "working"). That photo i is undated;  however is after Nationalisation because although the mogul  (6301)still says GWR on its tender, the T9 has its BR number (30717). 

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I have to say that the first time I saw a photo of an Achilles at Leicester I was nearly as confused as when I first discovered the LNER at Wrexham!

One thing I've never found any views of are GC or GN atlantics on shed at Swindon.  In my spotting days it was merely a B1,  they alas saw off all the more puissant earlier power on that working.

 

There is a very nice picture somewhere of a GWR outside frame 4-4-0 at Manchester Exchange but as it was a 'Dukedog' it fairly definitely didn't have any convertible origins.  It seems quite likely that Aberdare 2-6-0s made Warrington and of course 28XX definitely did (on Admiralty coal trains in WWI) but maybe a convertible 0-6-0 got there at some time?

[great central]

For the sake of comparison and completeness a view taken today from, as near as I could guess, a similar viewpoint.

The last time I was here there were still some remains of the platforms and the whole area had a distinct air of dereliction. New hotels opposite the station front and new homes to the rear of the station have changed it dramatically. The newly renovated station entrance is a joy to behold.

I'll either start a fresh thread or find somewhere appropriate to post some more pictures.

Having looked more closely at this photo I think I'm rather too far to the left but hopefully you can see the remaining section of parapet.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, great central said:

For the sake of comparison and completeness a view taken today from, as near as I could guess, a similar viewpoint.

The last time I was here there were still some remains of the platforms and the whole area had a distinct air of dereliction. New hotels opposite the station front and new homes to the rear of the station have changed it dramatically. The newly renovated station entrance is a joy to behold.

I'll either start a fresh thread or find somewhere appropriate to post some more pictures.

Having looked more closely at this photo I think I'm rather too far to the left but hopefully you can see the remaining section of parapet.

The last time I was there on a steam hauled train was when the Black 5 working the train (which had replaced a very ailing 'Scot' at Woodford Halse) was, in its turn, replaced by an EE Type 4  which worked the train through to Manchester.  And much to my disappointment that meant no electric over Woodhead.  

 

The last time I was there behind a train heading in the same direction as the original photo was behind an EE Type 3 which worked the York - Bournemouth between Sheffield and Banbury.

[rodent279]

6 hours ago, great central said:

For the sake of comparison and completeness a view taken today from, as near as I could guess, a similar viewpoint.

The last time I was here there were still some remains of the platforms and the whole area had a distinct air of dereliction. New hotels opposite the station front and new homes to the rear of the station have changed it dramatically. The newly renovated station entrance is a joy to behold.

I'll either start a fresh thread or find somewhere appropriate to post some more pictures.

Having looked more closely at this photo I think I'm rather too far to the left but hopefully you can see the remaining section of parapet.

St Mary de Castro must be hidden behind the Holiday Inn.