Signal position/type advice

[Andy_197011]

Looking for some tips on signals and positions on my layout.
This is something I have never been able to get my head around.
Here is my track plan-

The Red block is the station.
Black line is the main line.
Green is the Bay platform.
Blue is goods avoidance line and goods reception/dispatch.
Yellow is the branch line.
Purple is the goods yard.
Distance between the yellow branch & blue avoidance line is about 2 foot.
I would expect a Token system would be used.
I plan to use LMS style semiphore signals.

Any help appreciated?

[TheSignalEngineer]

A few questions.

You say LMS but where and when? Depending on date, instructions changed and some were retrospective, others not.

Manchester did things differently to Crewe who didn't always follow Derby / Euston and Scotland is another country.

 

Branch passenger or freight?

 

What is the bay used for, will anything be stabled there?

 

Frequency of trains?

 

Regarding the track layout you will need trap points at both ends of the Goods line. Others may be necessary depending on line usage and possibly gradients. 

[Andy_197011]

My layout is Scottish in nature.

Period 1960-early 70's.

Branch line is passenger only with trains using the bay platform as a lay-over between timetabled trips down the branch.

I would have branch trains arrive at the main platform (When steam or Diesel hauled) with the loco running round and repositioning the train into the bay for the return trip after a lay-over.

I would also have parcels traffic using the bay platform.

 

Trap points I will keep in mind thanks.

[Clagmeister]

• Diverging pairs one each out of the bay, main platform and passing loop I'd say.  A dolly for coming out of the yard.  In the other direction 3 way splitter off the branch and the main with dollys for the platform, bay and associated for the yard.  Main aspects at the other end of the loop and platform and a splitter for going into those from the other end.  Could split the loop with dollys for fun I guess.

[Andy_197011]

Thanks for the reply Clagmeister. I may need to get my translation book out 

[Clagmeister]

Oh Sorry.  I'll have a think and try to put it better.  Someone else might come along in the meantime, if they do, all good.  Forgot myself.

[Andy_197011]

4 hours ago, Clagmeister said:

Oh Sorry.  I'll have a think and try to put it better.  Someone else might come along in the meantime, if they do, all good.  Forgot myself.

I'm afraid i'm a signalling numpty...

[Clagmeister]

I'll try but remember if you asked a 100 people you'd get a 100 different answers.

 

Heading left to right if you think logically you'd need a stop signal coming along the branch and the main line.  You then have to think what routing and moves would be available.

 

From each of those signals you would need a route into the main platform, the bay platform and the loop line.  In addition it is likely you might also want to shunt into all 3 of the those routes if they were occupied.  So each of those would need 3 main routing signals and 3 matching shunting signals underneath on what I call dollys but there are numerous names for shunting signals.

 

Rather like this one at the WSR but you would have three main arms instead of two and the shunting signals could be discs or subsidiary or small arms.

 

They could look like this sort of thing.

 

The next signals if you then move from left to right is where differing views come into it and exact knowledge of regulations might be needed.

 

Moving towards the bay and main platform line a pair of disc shunting signals might be provided for entrance into the bay or for continuing along the main platform line.  They would look like the bottom middle set in this picture.  They save moves and time for shunting from main platform to bay or vice versa meaning you don't need to go out behind the first signals we talked about.  For a train routed through under main aspect signals these would be classed as running dummies and would be cleared as part of route setting.

 

The next signal along the main platform line would be a main aspect signal at the right hand end of the platform.

 

If running into the loop i think there would be another set double shunting discs again as above middle lower in the picture just before the loop line diverges into the yard.  This would route you into the yard or along the loop line.

 

The last signal working from left to right would be another main aspect signal opposite the one on the platform at the end of the loop line.

 

There would be another one to the right hand side of the layout but don't think it would be in the limit of you plan.

 

I'll try and do right to left at another time.  If anyone else has a better way of doing this or describing it or has a better idea please shout up, its making mu head hurt.

 

Claggy.

 

 

 

 

[Andy_197011]

Thank you for the reply and pictures.

That helps a lot.

[Andy_197011]

I have knocked up this picture from what you have described..

[Clagmeister]

Almost, only thing is the scale, if the two branches and the station are quite close then you would need to remove the 3-way and turn the two signals coming off the main and branch into 3-way signals. They would be mirror images of each other.

[Wheatley]

Try this, there is more than one way of skinning this particular cat:

This assumes there is a reasonable length between the end of the loop and the branch, if not it's going to look crowded. Numbers are for reference only, I doubt the frame would be laid out like this. 

 

If you want to simplify it delete 14/15  and replace 12 and 13 with signals similar to 14/15. You could also decide that branch to yard is not a signalled route and delete 11. I have assumed that the points into the yard off the loop are worked from the box, or you could have them as hand points released by the box and delete 8. 

[Andy_197011]

1 hour ago, Wheatley said:

Try this, there is more than one way of skinning this particular cat:

This assumes there is a reasonable length between the end of the loop and the branch, if not it's going to look crowded. Numbers are for reference only, I doubt the frame would be laid out like this. 

 

If you want to simplify it delete 14/15  and replace 12 and 13 with signals similar to 14/15. You could also decide that branch to yard is not a signalled route and delete 11. I have assumed that the points into the yard off the loop are worked from the box, or you could have them as hand points released by the box and delete 8. 

Thanks for your take on it.

My signalled diagram is just for trains from the left heading right so far.

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, Wheatley said:

Try this, there is more than one way of skinning this particular cat:

Ask two signal engineers to populate it and you will get at least four options. 

 

Your effort was actually more or less my first sketch. My only addition was the possibility for needing a trap in the bay because of leaving an unattended parcels van stabled in there. 

Other options depend on the distance between the Branch and Loop points.

 

Regarding signal numbering, running signals in one direction of running should be in a group together. The common layout would be Up signals one end, points and associated ground signals in the middle, Down signals at the other end. There are other arrangements but less often used.

[Clagmeister]

3 hours ago, Wheatley said:

Try this, there is more than one way of skinning this particular cat:

This assumes there is a reasonable length between the end of the loop and the branch, if not it's going to look crowded. Numbers are for reference only, I doubt the frame would be laid out like this. 

 

If you want to simplify it delete 14/15  and replace 12 and 13 with signals similar to 14/15. You could also decide that branch to yard is not a signalled route and delete 11. I have assumed that the points into the yard off the loop are worked from the box, or you could have them as hand points released by the box and delete 8. 

 

Glad you did that, a drawing is much easier, I should have thought of that.  I would go without 14/15 I think, but as you say there are numerous ways to skin this cat.

[TheSignalEngineer]

2 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Other options depend on the distance between the Branch and Loop points.

@Andy_197011How far apart are these points?

[Andy_197011]

Thanks so far guys.

I have drawn a trackplan with a better idea of distance between signals.

Distance between signals 12/13 & 3/4/5 is 3 foot.

 

[Wheatley]

Standard CR/GSWR/Stevens practice would have the facing points locked by depression bars with the signal close to the points, so it looks as though you do need 12/13 (your numbering). If you decide the LMS modernised it and locked them with track circuits you can do away with them and turn 9/10 into splitting signals. 

 

You've only got one signalled route off 1 and 2 at the moment.