Reculver, Kent - a "What If?" Layout Discussion.

[Ray Von]

46 minutes ago, C126 said:

Gosh, was it really three years ago we had the discussions about this?!  So sorry for your changing circumstances, but glad to see you are using the opportunity to make something new.  Your example inspired me to type up a couple of Working Time Table pages eventually for my layout (still unfinished).

 

Any chance you could post the missing photos on this thread as a record, if it would not be too emotionally taxing, please?  I always liked your 'split station' layout, and was envious of the idea.

 

 

 

[Ray Von]

These are recent pics, the old ones are long gone I'm afraid...

[Ray Von]

Quoting from a previous post, these were the services that called at the old layout -

 

"Platform 1 and 2:

 

Dover Priory via Minster and Deal - all stations stopper, probably hourly.

Victoria via Canterbury, Ashford and Maidstone East - semi fast, four trains daily between 10 am and 4 pm

Schools shuttle to Canterbury West - once daily leaving at 8.15, returning at 4.45

 

Platform 3 and 4:

 

Victoria via Chatham and Bromley South - fast train, probably hourly

Charing Cross via Strood and North Kent line - slow train probably hourly

Cannon Street via Chislehurst and Hither Green - fast peak hour service, probably only one or two a day."

 

I now need to crowbar a similar timetable into a layout something like this:

 

 

[C126]

<Sharp intake of breath.>  Note you have only half the no. of platforms now.  Might a relocation of the station be called for, or a 'change in time' to a more run-down era of B.R. (S)?

 

[whart57]

I think you need to have a third platform. What if you put the factory sidings on a kick back? Something like this:

 

 

If you're tight on space you can lose the scissors that lets all incoming and outgoing trains use either of platforms 1&2. Pretend its offstage. Platform 3 is for the ex SER line trains, and as it would be the quietest platform it is also used to access your Zanussi distribution centre.

Edited April 16 by whart57

[Ray Von]

This project is going to be fully automated and more about showcasing my locos - as such I am trying to keep the number of points to an absolute minimum, I would like to get some Tortoise or Cobalt slow action motors ideally - and they're not cheap!

[whart57]

Does this look a bit better?

 

[Ray Von]

1 hour ago, whart57 said:

Does this look a bit better?

 

 

The plan I have (to save costs and space) is to have all the point work "offstage" as it were.

 

I've done a basic doodle and I think I've come up with the bones of something that will allow me to utilise all my rolling stock, therefore keeping the station served as planned:

 

Platform 1 (Non-electrified):

 

A) Freight

 

Platform 2 (Non-electrified):

 

B) Hourly DMU "shuttle" service to Dover via Minster. (Could also double as a School Service @ 08:15 and 16:45)

 

C) 2 Hourly London Victoria via Canterbury (older stock.)

 

Platform 3 (Third Rail)

 

D) Regular London Victoria (Ramsgate via Faversham) EMU#1

 

E) Hourly Charing Cross via Strood slow commuter service (could also double as the fast Cannon St. service.

 

Platform 4 (Third Rail)

 

F) Regular Ramsgate (London Victoria via Faversham) EMU#2

 

Obviously this needs some ironing out, but that's the current draft.

 

 

 

[C126]

Just one thought: won't it look a little strange the Freights being propelled such a long way out 'off stage' upon departure?  Ditto, any loco-hauled peak-time service E.C.S.

 

[Ray Von]

21 minutes ago, C126 said:

Just one thought: won't it look a little strange the Freights being propelled such a long way out 'off stage' upon departure?  Ditto, any loco-hauled peak-time service E.C.S.

 

I don't know really, what would be a prototypical distance? 

[whart57]

The London Victoria via Canterbury service is a long way over SR  electrified lines for non-electrified stock. How about your day service being Reculver to Hastings? Linking the Canterbury West to Reculver and the Ashford to Hastings via Rye DMU services by the relatively short link over the electrified tracks between Canterbury and Ashford might be a better use of shift times and DMU running times than a short shuttle service. You could explain this away by suggesting it allows some Ramsgate to Charing Cross services to run non-stop between Canterbury and Ashford as the Reculver-Hastings service acts as the stopper for Chartham, Chilham and Wye.

[Ray Von]

On 16/02/2021 at 08:21, whart57 said:

 

Some minor corrections and tweaks if I may.

 

Platform 3 and 4:

1. Victoria via Chatham and Bromley South - fast train, probably hourly
2. Charing Cross via Strood and North Kent line - slow train probably hourly
3. Cannon Street via Chislehurst and Hither Green - fast peak hour service, probably only one or two a day

Cannon Street was really a rush hour only station. It closed at weekends and had a very sparse service during the day. Your period is pre-Big Bang so working in the City was very much a 9-5 job

 

Platform 1 and 2:

1. Dover Priory via Minster and Deal - all stations stopper, probably hourly.
2. Victoria via Canterbury, Ashford and Maidstone East - semi fast, four trains daily between 10 am and 4 pm
3. Schools shuttle to Canterbury West - once daily leaving at 8.15, returning at 4.45

I see the Victoria via Ashford service being more a way of giving stock that provided extra peak services something better to do than festering in a carriage siding at Hither Green all day. (And unionised train crews doing some work running trains rather than filling in the Sun crossword in the staff canteen)

 

You would also need to work in some empty stock workings from Ramsgate since you don't have stabling at your Reculver. Which is an interesting point given that your Ramsgate link comes in on the wrong side of the station for Victoria services and I don't think you have a connection between the two sides. I need someone to tell me whether Faversham would be the serving depot for the LCDR side or whether a reversal at Herne Bay would be the way to get stock to Reculver platforms 3/4.

 

On the other hand, if you can provide some link between the two sides it could provide extra interest. Something like this:

 

 

Then your empty stock train would have to run into Platform 2, reverse into the carriage siding and then change direction again to get to platforms 3 and 4

 

Obviously the platform numbers have switched around, but we did have a Victoria / Canterbury service in the last incarnation.

*Edit - but there was a (contentious) third rail involved! ;-D

Edited April 17 by Ray Von

[Ray Von]

29 minutes ago, whart57 said:

The London Victoria via Canterbury service is a long way over SR  electrified lines for non-electrified stock. How about your day service being Reculver to Hastings? Linking the Canterbury West to Reculver and the Ashford to Hastings via Rye DMU services by the relatively short link over the electrified tracks between Canterbury and Ashford might be a better use of shift times and DMU running times than a short shuttle service. You could explain this away by suggesting it allows some Ramsgate to Charing Cross services to run non-stop between Canterbury and Ashford as the Reculver-Hastings service acts as the stopper for Chartham, Chilham and Wye.

Would this be another DMU or a diesel commuter loco?

[whart57]

The real Ashford Hastings was a DMU

[Ray Von]

3 minutes ago, whart57 said:

The real Ashford Hastings was a DMU

Many thanks, so I'd have a brace of DMUS running off platform 2? 

[whart57]

I bow to others regarding actual type, but I'm presuming Thumpers or Tadpole units.

[Rivercider]

6 hours ago, C126 said:

Just one thought: won't it look a little strange the Freights being propelled such a long way out 'off stage' upon departure?  Ditto, any loco-hauled peak-time service E.C.S.

 

Have the freight propelled in to the depot from the local yard which is just off-scene 'up the line'. You might, or might not, need a brake van at the front of the propelling move depending on local circumstances as shown in the Sectional Appendix.

In the Bristol area in the 1980s freight traffic was propelled from Lawrence Hill yard along the freight only Avonside Branch for about a mile to Avonside Wharf, there being no run-round facilities at Avonside. Also in Avonmouth the Rowntrees warehouse at Avonmouth was served by a trip working that then propelled back (right line) for about two miles to Hallen Marsh due to the track layout at Avonmouth. Both moves required a brake van at the front of the movement in which shunters and guard rode as they both crossed gated road crossings.

 

cheers  

Edited April 17 by Rivercider
Additional info added - mileages of propelling moves.

[C126]

10 hours ago, Rivercider said:

Have the freight propelled in to the depot from the local yard which is just off-scene 'up the line'. You might, or might not, need a brake van at the front of the propelling move depending on local circumstances as shown in the Sectional Appendix.

In the Bristol area in the 1980s freight traffic was propelled from Lawrence Hill yard along the freight only Avonside Branch for about a mile to Avonside Wharf, there being no run-round facilities at Avonside. Also in Avonmouth the Rowntrees warehouse at Avonmouth was served by a trip working that then propelled back (right line) for about two miles to Hallen Marsh due to the track layout at Avonmouth. Both moves required a brake van at the front of the movement in which shunters and guard rode as they both crossed gated road crossings.

 

cheers  

 

Thanks, @Rivercider .  This sounds good, and an excuse to have a rare brake-van.  There is a picture in one of Paul Shannon's books, I think, perhaps of this branch, with the shunter and guard leaning indolently on the back of the brake-van's verandah, 'watching the world go by'.  Their poses looked perfect for whether arriving or departing.  Look forward to seeing how the speed controls work/look.  Best wishes.

 

[Ray Von]

10 hours ago, Rivercider said:

Have the freight propelled in to the depot from the local yard which is just off-scene 'up the line'. You might, or might not, need a brake van at the front of the propelling move depending on local circumstances as shown in the Sectional Appendix.

In the Bristol area in the 1980s freight traffic was propelled from Lawrence Hill yard along the freight only Avonside Branch for about a mile to Avonside Wharf, there being no run-round facilities at Avonside. Also in Avonmouth the Rowntrees warehouse at Avonmouth was served by a trip working that then propelled back (right line) for about two miles to Hallen Marsh due to the track layout at Avonmouth. Both moves required a brake van at the front of the movement in which shunters and guard rode as they both crossed gated road crossings.

 

cheers  

That sounds like a great solution, I love this sort of information! 

[Ray Von]

A little scribble. 

I've moved the points into the scenic area, this could add a little more visual interest (waiting at red signals, allowing priority etc?)

The wiring of stop/start/slow sensors etc is a bit daunting though.

[whart57]

I can't resist interfering 😁

 

 

In my scenario the non-electrified line to Canterbury via Grove Ferry is single track, so I've made that your simplest in and out from the top line of the fiddle yard to Platform 1.

 

Platform 0 is for parcels and side loading freight and the factory siding is on a kick-back. Incoming freight though is from one of the Faversham lines in the fiddle yard and has to route over two points to reach its unloading point.

 

Platforms 2 and 3 are your London services via Faversham. However the line is double track so outgoing trains should swap over to the right running line. But you could imagine some carriage stabling sidings a bit down the line which involve a short distance of wrong line running as well.

 

Finally, if you have room it might be nice to have a disused platform 4 with the track lifted just as a scenic feature. A not unheard of feature of the 1980s if I recall. An extra touch might be to have retaining walls along part of the outside of platforms 1 and 4 to suggest an overall roof was once in place but has been removed for safety reasons.

Edited April 18 by whart57

[Ray Von]

2 hours ago, whart57 said:

I can't resist interfering 😁

 

 

In my scenario the non-electrified line to Canterbury via Grove Ferry is single track, so I've made that your simplest in and out from the top line of the fiddle yard to Platform 1.

 

Platform 0 is for parcels and side loading freight and the factory siding is on a kick-back. Incoming freight though is from one of the Faversham lines in the fiddle yard and has to route over two points to reach its unloading point.

 

Platforms 2 and 3 are your London services via Faversham. However the line is double track so outgoing trains should swap over to the right running line. But you could imagine some carriage stabling sidings a bit down the line which involve a short distance of wrong line running as well.

 

Finally, if you have room it might be nice to have a disused platform 4 with the track lifted just as a scenic feature. A not unheard of feature of the 1980s if I recall. An extra touch might be to have retaining walls along part of the outside of platforms 1 and 4 to suggest an overall roof was once in place but has been removed for safety reasons.

It looks good and I wish I had the budget / space to do it! 🙂

I have a query re: the London via Faversham lines (since the latest RMweb update all previous images have been lost sadly.)

I'm trying to recall the theoretical layout of the "spur" that connects this layout to that line???

Something like that??

Edited April 18 by Ray Von
Added Image

[whart57]

Well not exactly like that, there would need to be crossovers to get trains running onto the correct lines.

 

The reasoning for a spur to Ramsgate is that that is where the loco sheds - in steam days - and EMU stabling was. So for empty stock movement

[Ray Von]

2 minutes ago, whart57 said:

Well not exactly like that, there would need to be crossovers to get trains running onto the correct lines.

 

The reasoning for a spur to Ramsgate is that that is where the loco sheds - in steam days - and EMU stabling was. So for empty stock movement

But the lines would have to cross at some point?

[whart57]

I'm not an expert on double track junctions, but I'm guessing there are trade-offs in terms of signalling and track complexity. It may even be that empty stock doesn't run from the Ramsgate direction directly but either runs to Herne Bay and reverses there, possibly doing a revenue service run as a connecting service from a London train, or there is a refuge siding provided to reverse in. In manual signalling days there was a Reculvers signal box in real life breaking the section between Herne Bay and Birchington into two blocks.