Colour of pre-grouping private owner wagons? (Pastel shades?)

[t.s.meese]

I have info on the wagon colours of various pre-grouping railways including the L&Y which had a brief flirt with pastel colours for butter (blue), meat (pink) and fish (green) vans. My question is, did Edwardian (or thereabouts) private owner wagons ever use these softer/pastel shades (rather than the usual: black, grey, brown, red, oxide)? I don't recall ever reading this anywhere but, for some reason, I have this as a possibility at the back of my mind (perhaps seen at a show sometime; I'm not sure).

Thanks

Tim.

[Michael Hodgson]

Probably rather more for vans than they did for coal trucks - which were by far the majority of PO wagons.

You could use a van as a mobile advertising hoarding without paying extra for the privilege, but you would have to clean it regularly if you wanted to maintain what we would now describe as your corporate image.

[t.s.meese]

36 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Probably rather more for vans than they did for coal trucks - which were by far the majority of PO wagons.

You could use a van as a mobile advertising hoarding without paying extra for the privilege, but you would have to clean it regularly if you wanted to maintain what we would now describe as your corporate image.

Ah - does that mean that vans were used more frequently by private owners during this period than during grouping where they are few and far between?

[Compound2632]

On 12/04/2021 at 15:37, t.s.meese said:

Ah - does that mean that vans were used more frequently by private owners during this period than during grouping where they are few and far between?

 

PO vans were always a rarity at all periods. If you want some interestingly-coloured ones, though, try the Colman's wagons topic:

 

As to unusual wagon colours, I wouldn't describe anything as "pastel" (including the L&Y vehicles you mentioned). Outside of the black, red (i.e. read lead usually, rather a brickish shade, not vermillion), and various shades of grey based on white lead, there was some use of other colours, more so from the early 20th century on. Various purplish-brown/chocolate shades were used:

 

Green could occasionally be found - perhaps the best-known example being Kingsbury Colliery (the subject of a Peco wonderful wagon); here's the only one I've got, a Hornby model, in line for underframe improvements:

 

 

(excuse the locomotive).

 

Even yellow and blue made very occasional appearances:

 

 

(an upgraded Hornby model).

 

Also varnished wood.

 

Have a browse of the liveries available from POWSides. But don't get carried away - the boring ordinary black, grey, and red were boringly ordinary and commonplace - probably 97% of PO wagons!

 

PO wagons for other minerals than coal and coke, especially wagons for lime, limestone, and stone, occupied a different palette, with "stone" colour being common:

 

 

(One of my less successful efforts, I'm afraid.)

Edited April 14, 2021 by Compound2632

[MarcD]

Wagons got a repaint, on the whole, every 5 to 7 years. So the owner/renter of the wagon needed a paint that would last. Grey lead, black and red oxide paints lasted longer than other colours so these were the ones chosen for the majority of wagons. 

 

Marc

[doilum]

The Powside website is a wonderful place to pass an idle hour!

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Furness Wagon said:

Wagons got a repaint, on the whole, every 5 to 7 years. So the owner/renter of the wagon needed a paint that would last. Grey lead, black and red oxide paints lasted longer than other colours so these were the ones chosen for the majority of wagons. 

 

The primary function of paint was to protect the materials of which the wagon was built from decay - rot and rust. That said, interiors were not, in general, painted. Presumably ingrained coal dust was effective!

 

1 minute ago, doilum said:

The Powside website is a wonderful place to pass an idle hour!

 

And to empty your wallett...

[AMJ]

Lightmoor Press has a nice series of books on PO wagons that has descriptions of the various shades used when initially painted by the builders of them

Private Owner Wagons by Keith Turton (there are 15 books numbered in words)

plus other books for regional PO wagons from same publisher.

https://lightmoor.co.uk/

 

[t.s.meese]

Thanks for all that. This is where I got the notion of pastel shades for L&Y from: https://www.lyrs.org.uk/Wagons

 

I would love to be able to get more of the Black and white Welsh anthracite wagons. (You need those to emphasise the coloured ones!) Mike's Models used to do these (including the lovely welsh names that begin with Y), but sadly no more. Seems like a gap in the market to me; even Peco didn't do those. (Peco are still my favourite wagons - you can't beat that matt paper finish for scale realism in my view, and it weathers/fades nicely too...) There's Robbie's Rolling Stock, of course, but those are on a Dapol stretched 17-6 body with 10" wheelbase. Hmm...

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, t.s.meese said:

I would love to be able to get more of the Black and white Welsh anthracite wagons. 

 

Plenty in the POWSides range - and the black pre-printed kits are an easy place to start as there's no fancy colour-matching for the underframe components which are supplied unpainted.

[Steamport Southport]

I bought a few of those the other week in the Hattons pre-owned section. Slaters and Cambrian kits mostly from S Wales, Dean Forest and a couple from Somerset. So they do come up unbuilt on the second hand market for a reasonable price.

 

But now I would probably be looking at the POWSides wagons rather than looking at second hand versions. They work out about the same price and you are guaranteed they will be complete.

 

One problem I have found is everywhere is out of wheels. I must put an order in to Gibson as I'm assuming most would have the split spoke.

 

So keep watching and you might find the Ystradgynlais & Yniscedwyn Collieries wagon. Which I reckon the signwriter was charging by the letter....

 

This is the one I mean. Unfortunately I never got that one, but there was quite a few at the time.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/394871/slaters_4041_po_7_plant_private_owners_wagon_ystradgynlais_and_yniscedwyn_kit_pre_owned_like_n/stockdetail.aspx

 

 

Jason

Edited April 15, 2021 by Steamport Southport

[t.s.meese]

I didn't know Slaters did that one, Steamport - I've never seen it come up on ebay...

And I think I must be missing something with Powsides, Compound ... must look more thoroughly...

tim.

[t.s.meese]

Okay - thanks for that nudge, guys. There are several sections there at Powsides that I thought were purely 7mm, but I now find include 4mm pre-printed kits. This is exactly what I was after... (It is a slightly odd interface...)

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, t.s.meese said:

There are several sections there at Powsides that I thought were purely 7mm, but I now find include 4mm pre-printed kits. This is exactly what I was after... (It is a slightly odd interface...)

 

All their transfers are available in both 4 mm and 7 mm scales, with preprinted kits for most also in both; it's only their in-house kits / RTR that are only available in 7 mm scale. In 4 mm scale they mostly use Slaters PO wagon kits for the pre-printed sides. These are OK to assemble - not quite as superbly-fitting-together as the best Parkside but better than most Cambrian.

[Wickham Green too]

Powsides did a small selection of 4mm scale pre-lettered resin bodies at one time ...... the moulding's a little bit 'heavy' but might be worth keeping an eye out for on flea-bay.

[t.s.meese]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

All their transfers are available in both 4 mm and 7 mm scales, with preprinted kits for most also in both; it's only their in-house kits / RTR that are only available in 7 mm scale. 

When I first looked at the Powsides site several years ago I got unlucky and under 'PO Liveries' I selected examples that were not available as 4mm kits (perhaps Twinning, Ward, and [the first] Stevenson Clarke) - the pull down options gave me no hope for 4mm kits. Given the organisation of the pulldown menu for 'products' (it's headed with 7mm; 4mm mentioned lower down), I assumed the whole section to be for 7mm kits with a few 4mm transfers; this, coupled with the absence of anything under the 4mm undecorated kits section, no images in the 4mm photo gallery and the emphasis on 7mm on the home page, led me to think they had pretty much given up on 4mm. Doh! I now know better. (But Powsides might like to revisit the details of their layout...)

cheers

tim.

 

[t.s.meese]

On 15/04/2021 at 18:50, Steamport Southport said:

 

One problem I have found is everywhere is out of wheels. I must put an order in to Gibson as I'm assuming most would have the split spoke.

 

Jason - yes - the 4mm wheel drought; also the return of the Bachmann short coupling drought! I have no solution for the couplings (and my own supply is drying up), but here is my goto site for wheels when Eileen's etc are out of stock: https://cm3models.co.uk/ [but don't tell anybody ;-) ]

I've just ordered a dozen split spoke axles for my new powside kits! 

Tim.

Edited April 17, 2021 by t.s.meese