Routemaster heritage bus route withdrawn (and new one started)

[009 micro modeller]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/transport-london-stops-service-heritage-routemaster-buses-b929365.html%3famp

Edited October 18, 2022 by 009 micro modeller

[Wheatley]

I'm amazed they lasted this long.

[BernardTPM]

Which Routemasters were built in the 1970s? Poor research there!

[009 micro modeller]

19 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

I'm amazed they lasted this long.

 

I get the impression though that the heritage ones were relatively lightly used compared to when they were in proper service up to 2005, based on the operating times and dates mentioned. Although that would depend on how many were used.

[Metr0Land]

49 minutes ago, BernardTPM said:

Which Routemasters were built in the 1970s? Poor research there!

 

Indeed the last one was RML2760 SMK760F

[Nearholmer]

How very sad, but probably inevitable.

 

39 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

I get the impression though that the heritage ones were relatively lightly used compared to when they were in proper service

 

The way they were used on the 15 meant that they were still "in proper service", but they operated only a relatively short route covering the "touristy bit" from Trafalgar Square to Tower. Most of the time they were carrying a steady, if not huge, stream of tourists for that trip, plus "ordinary people" making short hops. The "ordinary" patronage was just the same as it would be for any other vehicle running the same route (get on the first bus that comes, whatever it is).

 

IMO, the best way to see Central London is still from the front seat on the top deck of a bus, and TBH the Boris Buses provide that experience very well ........  its probably only nostalgics like me who want the full retro experience.

[John M Upton]

It was obvious TfL wanted rid of the two heritage routes ASAP and basically did it by stealth, cutting the timetable down to something approaching next to useless.  The loss of tourism in central London over the last year was the final nail required in the coffin.

 

I reckon the (in my opinion) horrid vanity project over expensive and over engineered Boris Buses will be gone as well before too long.  Their supposed unique selling point, the retention of a Conductor, a.k.a. Passenger Host or whatever they called them was binned a few years back.

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

The way they were used on the 15 meant that they were still "in proper service", but they operated only a relatively short route covering the "touristy bit" from Trafalgar Square to Tower.

 

Wasn’t it seasonal on a shorter working day though?

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, John M Upton said:

It was obvious TfL wanted rid of the two heritage routes ASAP and basically did it by stealth, cutting the timetable down to something approaching next to useless.  The loss of tourism in central London over the last year was the final nail required in the coffin.

 

I think it is a shame. There seem to also be a few people claiming that fares were not being collected properly or that there were issues following the elimination of paper tickets from the TfL bus network, though I’m not sure if they’re right about the specifics of this.

 

At the same time, I also find myself wondering whether it really can be considered within TfL’s remit to operate such a service on a regular basis, especially at the moment when they quite understandably need to focus on essential services. Could the London Transport Museum, or a private operator, perhaps operate a similar kind of service in future using vintage vehicles?

 

I understand that, in order to ensure that all the routes are disabled accessible, the heritage route has to duplicate an existing route that is already operating with modern accessible vehicles as well, which presumably limits the ability to create a specifically heritage/tourist focused route (for instance, a circular route connecting the LTM with other museums and tourist attractions). Heritage rail vehicles sometimes have derogations from some of the accessibility regulations, but I don’t know if anything similar exists for heritage bus services.

 

The main reason for withdrawal seems to be to cut costs, which is fair enough at the moment, but are the emissions from the vehicles now more of an issue than previously? Or do the rules on this largely only affect new buses?

[Joseph_Pestell]

7 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

Which Routemasters were built in the 1970s? Poor research there!

Did you ever read a newspaper article about a subject you know, and not find a glaring error?

[Joseph_Pestell]

6 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

...  its probably only nostalgics like me who want the full retro experience.

 

Of course not. Model Routemasters sell all around the world. Foreign tourists expect to see a Routemaster in London every bit as much as Tower Bridge, St Pauls, Palace of Westminster, etc.

I don't doubt that some of tour operators will jump in and make a fortune that could have been had by London ratepayers.

I remember, a few years back, someone saying that no-one would want to hire a Citroen 11BL to sightsee Paris. But someone is doing it now, and very profitably. You can also hire a 2CV.

Nostalgia ain't what it used to be. 

[Nearholmer]

8 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Wasn’t it seasonal on a shorter working day though?

Reading that article, it seems to have become so. I’m 99% sure that when I left TfL in late-2016 it was still a seven day a week route, but IIRC the RMs didn’t go into service until after the morning peak, presumably to avoid thrashing them, rammed full with commuters going from Charing Cross into the City.

 

The overall picture though, is that TfL has been under immense financial pressure since c2015, when grant funding was refocused away from London to ‘The North’, and Covid precautions have absolutely hammered revenue, so they absolutely have to look very carefully at everything that needs subsidy, and that route was subsidised c£800k/year, which is probably better spent subsidising routes serving less affluent suburbs, if it can be afforded at all.

[009 micro modeller]

33 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I’m 99% sure that when I left TfL in late-2016 it was still a seven day a week route

 

Did it work year-round and late in the evenings though?

 

Incidentally, I understand that the Epping Ongar Railway’s bus link to Epping tube station operates as a registered public service and technically is open to those who are not EOR passengers. I’m not sure how the accessibility issues are dealt with for this.

[pete_mcfarlane]

6 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Foreign tourists expect to see a Routemaster in London every bit as much as Tower Bridge...

Or 'London Bridge' as they call it....

[Nearholmer]

39 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Did it work year-round and late in the evenings though?

Route 15 is a year round, full hours service, Blackwall to Charing Cross/Trafalgar Square, and latterly the RMs operated only the ‘short workings’ over the touristy part of it.
 

From what I can glean, they were used on those short workings every day post morning peak from 2005-2019, thereafter only on summer w/e and b/h. I think (but don’t quote me) that the short workings cease after the evening peak, when most people have gone home from the City.

Edited April 15, 2021 by Nearholmer

[rocor]

I never got to acquire any fondness for the RMs, mainly because in the outer suburb of London where I lived, the routes were populated by RTs. The RTs transported me to secondary school each day, and to work in my early days of employment.

 

So as a personal preference, I would rather see a London based bus service that was featuring an historical vehicle, being provided by the AEC Regent III rather than the Routemaster.

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

Or 'London Bridge' as they call it....

 

Nah. The foreigners have already got that...

 

 

 

Before someone points out that he wanted Tower Bridge and was tricked. Total myth I'm afraid, he knew exactly what he was buying.

[Nick C]

9 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Of course not. Model Routemasters sell all around the world. Foreign tourists expect to see a Routemaster in London every bit as much as Tower Bridge, St Pauls, Palace of Westminster, etc.

I don't doubt that some of tour operators will jump in and make a fortune that could have been had by London ratepayers.

I remember, a few years back, someone saying that no-one would want to hire a Citroen 11BL to sightsee Paris. But someone is doing it now, and very profitably. You can also hire a 2CV.

Nostalgia ain't what it used to be. 

Definitely - when my in-laws came over to visit from Poland the first time, we took them up to London for a day, and one of the key points was a ride on a Routemaster - and they have no interest in buses. My nephew, 4 at the time, loved the toy RM he got too!

 

The route was perfect for it too, going from Trafalgar Square to the Tower vis St Pauls, so ticking off three of the top sights to see too. It made part of a great circuit taking in the sights by public transport - RM to the tower, boat to Greenwich, cable-car, DLR to Bank, tube to Piccadilly Circus.

Edited April 15, 2021 by Nick C

[wombatofludham]

To be honest (and notwithstanding my dislike of the RM) London Transport is losing money hand over fist, so should concentrate on moving people, not tourist attractions.  Blackpool's heritage tram operation is run by a separate trust from Blackpool Borough Transport, so if there is seen as a need for Rotmasters on the streets of London - and I'd argue it is debateable given the existing tourist bus operations in London - then it should be hived off into a non-profit community enterprise set up as a historical trust, who could then access grants and other funding sources denied to TfL.  TfL have enough on their plate with the need to move Londoners, plus the financial headache of the vanity project Borismasters to cope with.

[009 micro modeller]

14 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

To be honest (and notwithstanding my dislike of the RM) London Transport is losing money hand over fist, so should concentrate on moving people, not tourist attractions.  Blackpool's heritage tram operation is run by a separate trust from Blackpool Borough Transport, so if there is seen as a need for Rotmasters on the streets of London - and I'd argue it is debateable given the existing tourist bus operations in London - then it should be hived off into a non-profit community enterprise set up as a historical trust, who could then access grants and other funding sources denied to TfL.  TfL have enough on their plate with the need to move Londoners, plus the financial headache of the vanity project Borismasters to cope with.

 

Would involving an organisation such as the London Transport Museum in a community operation be a good idea?

 

I agree that it isn’t really something that TfL should be focusing on, though I think people are surprised that it was apparently making a loss. That’s interesting information about Blackpool - presumably since it’s a tram that runs on specific infrastructure it’s slightly more complicated than an independent bus operation would be.

 

Apparently it stopped being a daily service in 2019: https://www.routemaster4hire.co.uk/post/heritage-route-15

[wombatofludham]

1 minute ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Would involving an organisation such as the London Transport Museum in a community operation be a good idea?

 

I agree that it isn’t really something that TfL should be focusing on, though I think people are surprised that it was apparently making a loss. That’s interesting information about Blackpool - presumably since it’s a tram that runs on specific infrastructure it’s slightly more complicated than an independent bus operation would be.

 

Apparently it stopped being a daily service in 2019: https://www.routemaster4hire.co.uk/post/heritage-route-15

Would depend on the legal status of LTM, if it is a stand alone charity or trust, it might work in terms of access to outside funding sources.

Blackpool tramway is a bit odd, because it was in operation at bus deregulation, and the law which forced council bus companies to become limited companies led to the track passing to Lancashire County Council, the trams to Blackpool Borough Council and the electricity supply to the Borough Council's illuminations team.  The new tramway is still split between the Borough Council and the County Council which probably makes the heritage operation easier.

[009 micro modeller]

4 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

Would depend on the legal status of LTM, if it is a stand alone charity or trust, it might work in terms of access to outside funding sources.

 

The LTM is a registered charity. From their website:

 

‘The Museum’s charitable objectives are to:

- Preserve our transport heritage and interpret the vital role transport has played in the life of our city

- Deliver education programmes for schools, working with over 100,000 young people every year

- Work with communities throughout London on creative and educational projects both within and outside the Museum

- Raise awareness of future transport issues and opportunities to promote a sustainable London.’

 

Although I wasn’t necessarily saying they should do it themselves, but that it would be a good idea for any trust set up specifically for such a project to work with them.

 

4 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

Blackpool tramway is a bit odd, because it was in operation at bus deregulation, and the law which forced council bus companies to become limited companies led to the track passing to Lancashire County Council, the trams to Blackpool Borough Council and the electricity supply to the Borough Council's illuminations team.  The new tramway is still split between the Borough Council and the County Council which probably makes the heritage operation easier.

 

Presumably it was a bit of an anomaly - I don’t think any of the modern tramways opened until a few years after deregulation. Would there have technically been a point at which, if a separate company had wanted to run services over the Blackpool Tramway tracks, the county council would have had to allow this?

 

I don’t think the Great Orme Tramway was affected in any similar way (it’s not really the same type of operation but is a street tramway owned and operated by a local authority).

[Dava]

I had a last ride on the RM no. 15 route before they stopped the year-round service, changes to crew t&c were being introduced which didn’t offer them a good deal.

 

European capital cities such as Vienna and Brussels have historic tram fleets which provide special services and London can’t even rustle up a few not-so-old iconic red buses. 
 

I did enjoy a trip on the Post Office Railway the same day, another great British engineering achievement.

 

Dava

[adb968008]

If LTM takes it, my fear would be its going to be an expensive “once in a lifetime” adventure, prebooked months in advance etc etc.

 

its a pity they couldnt franchise it (turn it into revenue for TFL), and let a bus museum source, maintain the vehicles and run a service, I can certainly think of one very good bus museum..

 

It was only running every 30 minutes or so in between peaks, which only required a couple of buses each day. I used to regularly see it layover at Tower bridge, I think most tourists bailed around St Pauls, from Charing cross, as each time I’d see it at monument it was empty.

 

 

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by adb968008

[Dava]

If Harry Potter had gone on a London RM it would be mobbed with Japanese schoolgirls. See Kings X.