Bachmann Ultima Limitations

[Butler]

I have a Bachmann Ultima System , which, all in all , I’m pleased with. Despite the claims of a 40 loco Rosta , in reality mine has a maximum of exactly 28! If I try to add another pre programmed loco, it says ‘unable to find loco x’

Ok I can live with that , just, but with a large fiddle yard and loads of sidings it is limiting.

So my questions to anyone who knows.

A Can I increase the capacity of the Rosta with another base station, or another handset?

B. When I delete a loco, can I leave it on the track, and then When capacity is available, ie, I have taken off another loco and deleted it from the Rosta, will it just let me select the new loco without re programming?

I have tried to find the answers on the web, in the instruction book (huh, such as it is!) and on other on line books for similar units such as the ESU navigator manual(;marginally better than Bachmanns)

Hope someone can help

B

 

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

There should be capacity for 40 locos.

Have you inadvertently loaded some of them in more than once (i.e. duplicates) ?

 

 

2 hours ago, Butler said:

A Can I increase the capacity of the Rosta with another base station, or another handset?

 

You can't add another "base station'

The base station contains the systems Command Station and Booster.

There can only be one Command Station in a DCC system. It's the "brains" of the system.

Additional Boosters can be added separately of course (....if needed that is).

 

Additional handsets (up to 4) can be used, but as designed, the loco roster (40 locos max) is copied onto each handset, by sync'ing.

There is a way to put different rosters onto each handset, but if sync'ing takes place, all but one roster will be erased.

 

 

2 hours ago, Butler said:

B. When I delete a loco, can I leave it on the track, and then When capacity is available, ie, I have taken off another loco and deleted it from the Rosta, will it just let me select the new loco without re programming?

 

You can delete a loco and leave it on the track, but you'll have to add it back into the roster to be able to control it.

This DCC system will only address (i.e. send commands to)  locos that are listed (i.e. programmed) in its roster.

If you hit the limit of 40 locos, then adding another will mean one of the existing 40 will have to be deleted to make space for it.

 

 

.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[Nigelcliffe]

For the Dynamis, the situation is as Ron describes.   

Another option for "temporarily stored" locos is to re-use the same address, and park locos on track with on/off switches.  But, cannot then use the same two addressed locos at the same time.  

 

The actual answer is to replace the Dynamis with almost anything else.   I don't think any other system has this kind of restriction - anything else would allow, in principle, thousands of locos to sit unused on the track.    (In practise the idle current of the decoders, even doing nothing, will be a limitation, but its "lots").  

 

 

- Nigel

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

As Nigel says, this sort of limitation is unique to ESU DCC systems. 

The Bachmann Dynamis and Dynamis Ultima, being badge engineered versions of the discontinued ESU Navigator system.

 

The other ESU systems, ECoS and CabControl also require locos to be stored, in order to be able to operate them.

The crucial difference being the number of locos that can be stored, which is.......16,384  locos. ..........that's correct !  sixteen thousand three hundred and eighty four !!!

 

In practice, you would never need to delete any loco, to make room for a new one.

 

 

.

[Butler]

Thank you both for your replies. I was told by more than 1 on this site, a while back, that although the early Dynamis Ultima claimed 40 loco, it was in fact only 30early on. Yes I may well have the odd loco in the Rosta that I was unaware of, but not 12!

So if I erase say loco 20, and leave it on the track. Put another loco on to any spare address, when I eventually delete that 1, How do I re Rosta loco 20. Will I have to re program on the service track? It still has 20 programmed in it, or will I just select 20 and it will run.,. Sorry to be so vague.

B

[Ron Ron Ron]

No you won't have to reprogram the loco decoder.

You are simply adding the loco back into the DCC system's roster memory.

 

If you delete Loco 20 from the Dynamis, it doesn't delete Loco 20's decoder settings.

The loco decoder will still be Loco 20.

However, Loco 20 will no longer be "known" to the Dynamis, so you can't select it and control it.

 

Meanwhile Loco 20 will just sit there on the layout, patiently waiting for instructions (i.e. DCC Commands), that never arrive.

 

When you want to add Loco 20 back onto the Dynamis, you just go through the "add loco" procedure, to put it back in the roster...assuming there's room for it.

Loco 20 will have retained all its settings in the on-board decoder.

 

The 40 limit is a bit naff, if you own a large number of locos.

It's not an issue if you only ever have a couple of dozen DCC fitted example.

 

.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[Butler]

Thank you very much, I know I’m being a bit thick, but to re add the ‘loco 20’ i would just have to select loco, the little train symbol, and press 20? Tick yes? Then it should be back in the Rosta? 

You say that 40 is a limitation but it appears I’ve only got 30. I can’t find who said on this site that it was 30 on early versions, or if there’s anything I can do about it. I’ve been through the histories and can’t find the discussion about it.

Ive got well over 40 locos and it is a pain.

if I can leave them all programmed it is easier, but in order to program new locos, I will have to erase 1 loco just to make Rosta space in order to program the new one. I guess

thanks again

B

[pheaton]

3 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

As Nigel says, this sort of limitation is unique to ESU DCC systems. 

The Bachmann Dynamis and Dynamis Ultima, being badge engineered versions of the discontinued ESU Navigator system.

 

The other ESU systems, ECoS and CabControl also require locos to be stored, in order to be able to operate them.

The crucial difference being the number of locos that can be stored, which is.......16,384  locos. ..........that's correct !  sixteen thousand three hundred and eighty four !!!

 

In practice, you would never need to delete any loco, to make room for a new one.

 

 

.

As I understand it....the limitation is unique to the dynamis not the navigator...ISTR that it was purposely implemented because the dynamis (when first launched) was a lot cheaper than the navigator.... im sure I read somewhere the navigator does not have this restriction????

[GoingUnderground]

3 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

As Nigel says, this sort of limitation is unique to ESU DCC systems. 

The Bachmann Dynamis and Dynamis Ultima, being badge engineered versions of the discontinued ESU Navigator system.

 

The other ESU systems, ECoS and CabControl also require locos to be stored, in order to be able to operate them.

The crucial difference being the number of locos that can be stored, which is.......16,384  locos. ..........that's correct !  sixteen thousand three hundred and eighty four !!!

 

In practice, you would never need to delete any loco, to make room for a new one.

.

A couple of observations on Ron's comments.

 

Is having to store locos in a database before you can run them really unique to ESU? Maerklin locos have to autoregister with the Maerklin Central Station 2 and 3, and I was under the impression that the high end multiprotocol systems from Viessmann, Zimo and Roco did likewise.

 

Set up or registration of a loco in a database sounds unnecessarily cumbersome, but the database isn't just a list of loco addresses. It holds a picture of each loco, its user-defined name, the digital protocol used by that loco as these high end systems are multiprotocol and when you call up a loco the system needs to know which data format to use for a particular loco, the number of functions each loco has, whether the function buttons are momentary or latching, and what each function button does accompanied by an appropriate thumbnail icon to remind you as to what that each function does.

 

Whilst the maximum number of stored locos on the ESU ECoS and ESU CabControl is 16,384, if your loco decoders have the automatic DCC registration feature of RailCom Plus, and Plus is also turned on in your ECoS or CabControl there is a lower limit of 9,999 unique loco addresses as Plus ensures that all locos have unique addresses but they must all be 4 figure numbers.

[GoingUnderground]

6 minutes ago, pheaton said:

As I understand it....the limitation is unique to the dynamis not the navigator...ISTR that it was purposely implemented because the dynamis (when first launched) was a lot cheaper than the navigator.... im sure I read somewhere the navigator does not have this restriction????

According to the information still available on Navigator on the ESU website http://www.esu.eu/en/products/digital-control/navigator/introduction/ the Navigator does have the limit of 40 locos, but it was supposed to be able to store up to 9999 locos - To quote ESU's product description: "The Navigator controls up to 40 locomotives; locos speaking DCC or Motorola® are appropriate. Depending on the decoders´ abilities, the Navigator switches up to 21 functions per locomotive and is able to handle up to 9999 addresses (up to 255 addresses are possible during Motorola® operation). Of course every loco can be named and assigned individually with an adequate symbol."

 

But there were differences between ESU Navigator and Bachmann's original Dynamis. not least that the European version of Navigator was DCC and Maerklin Motorola (MM) whereas the USA and Tillig version was DCC only, and more like Dynamis. The full European version of Navigotor, was I thought, equivalent to a Dynamis with a ProBox but multiprotocol I also have a vague idea that the way that the data was displayed on the screen was different, but perhaps I'm thinking of the ECoSControl Radio.

[Ron Ron Ron]

23 minutes ago, pheaton said:

As I understand it....the limitation is unique to the dynamis not the navigator...ISTR that it was purposely implemented because the dynamis (when first launched) was a lot cheaper than the navigator.... im sure I read somewhere the navigator does not have this restriction????

 

The Navigator has the 40 loco limit as well.

 

http://www.esu.eu/en/products/digital-control/navigator/introduction/

 

22 minutes ago, GoingUnderground said:

A couple of observations on Ron's comments.....

 

I totally agree with your comments and observations Keith.

I suspected some other European systems might work in this way as well, for the reasons you have given.

 

 

.

[Ron Ron Ron]

4 minutes ago, GoingUnderground said:

According to the information still available on Navigator on the ESU website......the Navigator does have the limit of 40 locos, but it was supposed to be able to store up to 9999 locos .....

 

Up to 40 locos and can accept all addresses up to 9999.

That's just a total of 40 locos, each of which can have any address up to 9999

 

 

.

[Butler]

CThanks, fine, but I know someone somewhere on here told me it was only 30 locos on early models, which I think mine is. C2015 And back to my question, was that after deleting my theoretical loco 20, to make room for another, to re enter it on the Rosta, do I just select that loco address and it will run again? Provided there is space on my Rosta.

.and To add another new loco ie program it, I may need to delete another loco temporarily whilst I do that, as it won’t even allow me to program on service track, if my Rosta is full?

Edited May 13, 2021 by Butler

[Nigelcliffe]

Yes, as you describe it Butler.    You can delete from the Dynamis' internal memory, create a space, then use that space for a different loco.  

 

 

 

 

[GoingUnderground]

For what it's worth, I think the root of the OP's problem is that he's outgrowing the Dynamis/Ultima, and that his frustration with the size of the loco stack will only get worse as he, in all probability, increases the size of this loco fleet.

 

Why he can only get 28-30 locos into the stack I don't know, and as I don't have a Dynamis or Ultima, I'm not going to try to suggest a cause or a solution.

[Butler]

Thank you, Keith, I’m fast coming to the same conclusion, I need a better system. Do you, or anyone have a good suggestion? 

I must have handheld controller , I like the speed control via  joystick. Display is nice ,  what’s out there?

B

[GoingUnderground]

13 hours ago, Butler said:

Thank you, Keith, I’m fast coming to the same conclusion, I need a better system. Do you, or anyone have a good suggestion? 

I must have handheld controller , I like the speed control via  joystick. Display is nice ,  what’s out there?

B

Now that is an impossible question for me or anyone else to answer as we don't know what you want out of a controller other than a handheld, by which I think you mean cordless/wireless, preferably with joystick control of the speed.

 

You need to make a list of what's important to you in a controller, the "must have" features.

 

Then decide what would be nice to have if available and add those features to your list.

 

If a controller doesn't yet have the must have features that you want but the manufacturer says that they are going to add them in future I suggest that you ignore that controller - manufacturers can change their plans and the feature might never arrive, leaving you high and dry.

 

Now do some research on the net to see which controllers meet your must haves, ignore any that don't give you your must haves. From that shortlist, now see which ones give you most of your "nice to haves".

 

Include in your search the range of supporting peripheral hardware that each controller manufacturer has in their range (I don't mean decoders as the NMRA standard says all loco and accessory decoders must work with all controllers), but things like occupancy detectors, boosters, additional throttles., etc. There are no NMRA standards on how to connect up peripherals to the main controller. There are some comms that several different manufacturers use, such as Xpressnet, or Loconet, but not every manufacturer uses them. Do not assume that if controller 1 from manufacturer A and Peripheral 2 from manufacturer B both have DIN sockets that you can connect them with the right cable. That could be a costly mistake. It must be the same comms standard. So if you particularly need certain peripherals and the manufacturer of a potential controller doesn't make them, then that might point you towards a different manufacturer for your new controller who does have those peripherals in their current range.

 

I haven't mentioned price as whilst that is a very, very important factor for us all, it can artificially limit your choice. But, and this is important, don't just look at the price of the controller when deciding what you can and cannot afford, but also at the price of any peripherals that you may want to add, as once you buy a controller you might find that the controller manufacturer's choice of peripheral interface means that you're locked in to that particular manufacturer's own peripherals, and they may not be cheap.

 

You should now have a list of probably as few as 2 or 3 potential purchases. If you can, try to find a retailer who has them on display to test drive in their shop, or try to do likewise at a show when they eventually resume.

 

I started out with, and don't laugh, please, a ZTC 505. But like you I got rather frustrated with it. So what to do? I found a retailer who had several controllers set up in their shop that I could try out. I went along and tried several, and found that some that other folks had recommended just didn't click with me. But I found one that did. Unfortunately, it was quite a bit more that I was expecting to pay. I went home deep in thought and mulled over what to do for the next 2 weeks. I then took the plunge, decided that I could just afford it even though it meant economising in other areas, and went back and bought it. I still have it, 12 years later, and was so pleased with it that I bought its replacement when that was launched, and have no regrets. The ZTC505 was sold off to help fund my original purchase.

[Butler]

Thank you very much Keith your helpful reply. So what did yo replace the ZTC with? Unfortunately for me, being in France, model shops are few and far, literally, and shows, non existent. But I will peruse the web and try to narrow choices down.  You’ve given me things to think about. In short though, the Dynamis does everything I want except the loco Rosta. And a few little quirks, but as usual the complete lack of information is a pain. 

B

[Nigelcliffe]

For someone based inside the EU I would tend towards EU-based manufacturers where there is support without having to go through customs/border issues.  So:  

 

Roco Z21 (the black one, with a capital Z, not the white small-z z21).   Plus optionally Roco WiFi (WLan) MultiMaus wireless handset to go with it.    
Z21 needs a smartphone or tablet to use it and setup the Z21: either Android or Apple.  With a tablet, can easily drive multiple locos from a single screen, and fully customise all function keys for the different sounds and loco features.

Possible negative for the MultiMaus handset: the way the speed control works.  Its essentially a "centre off" knob, turn clockwise from centre-off to go forwards, turn anticlockwise for reverse (forward/reverse being "loco forwards", not "clockwise round my layout").   Some people are fine with this, others find it extremely annoying.  Impossible to say how you'll find it.    The MultiMaus has a "library" (like the Dynamis Roster), its 64 locos long, and can still operate on "addresses only" instead of "named loco in library".  

Z21 can also work with quite a lot of other maker's handsets (eg. those from Lenz, Digitrax, Uhlenbrock and others), so increasing handset options once the base system is setup. 
 

Desk based controller - ie. two control knobs, at a console, not a walk-around.   ESU ECoS.   Really nicely made, works well if a "two knobs at a desk" system will suit your needs.   Like the Z21, it can work with other maker's handsets, though can be might need additional hardware to connect some other makers.   

 

Cheaper, does almost the same as the Z21, is the Digikeijs command station (somewhere between 2/3 and 1/2 the price, depending how you cost-out various bits and pieces).  But it seems to be a system where a computer-techie mind helps with with various updates, configurations, support, etc..   Suspect that's not a good choice from the forum threads leading to this point.  

 

 

There are numerous other systems, with numerous other pros and cons.   

 

 

 

- Nigel

[GoingUnderground]

As you've asked, it was the original ECoS 1 with the black & white screen, and I bought the colour screen ECoS 2 when it first went on sale. I've lent my ECoS 1 to a friend, and as far as I know it's still going strong.

 

An ECoS probably isn't the right controller for you as it is a mains powered console unit and you can't carry it around with you. ESU did sell a wireless handset specifically for it, called an ECoSControl Radio (ECORA) which used the same handset body as the ESU Navigator and as your Dynamis Ultima, joystick and all, but the information displayed was different to what you see on your setup. Here is a link to it on ESU's website http://www.esu.eu/en/products/former-products/ecoscontrol-radio/. ESU discontinued it when they launched the Mobile Control 2 handset, and you can't use your Dynamis handset in the same way with an ECoS. The ECORA came with a transceiver card that plugged into the underside of the ECoS. You might find one for sale from new somewhere wit han internet search, but that is a really longshot. or possibly one for sale secondhand on auction sites. I have one myself, but there is a problem with the sensitivity of the joystick, probably caused by old age and with dust getting into the joystick contacts or wear or corrosion or a bit of all 3. ESU do repair them, but I've not got around to having it fixed, but should have done before we left the EU as getting stuff to and from Germany for repair may well be a real PITA now. The ECORA acts as an additional throttle to an ECoS.

 

However, there are three other ways to put an ECoS in your hand.

 

The first is to use an app on a smartphone, the app turns your phone into an additional throttle. TouchCab is probably the best known one for Apple iphones. I believe there are similar apps for Android based smartphones such as RtDrive.

 

The second is to add the ESU Mobile Control 2 to your ECoS. The MC2 is an Android based device that runs its own MC2 app that acts as an additional throttle. The MC2 is expensive.

 

The third is to control the ECoS itself remotely as from firmware 4.0.0, ESU put a VNC server inside the ECoS. This lets you operate an ECoS remotely from another touch screen device such as tablet or smartphone, just as if you were sitting in front of the ECoS and touching it's screen with your finger for real. There are several different VNC client apps around and they are available for Windows computers, tablets, laptops and smartphones, Apple iMacs and iphones, Android smartphones, and Linux devices, and are free. I use one called RealVNC, and I know that other ECoS owners use ones called Tight VNC and Tiny VNC. The VNC route does not give you an additional throttle for an ECoS, but it is true cordless remote control of the ECoS. Whatever you do on the tablet or smartphone screen also happens at the same time on the ECoS's own screen. You do need to have the ECoS connected to a WiFi router.

 

I apologise if this sounds like a plug for ECoS. It is not, and I strongly urge you to follow my earlier suggestion of identifying your needs first and then finding the best match against your needs. 

[BoD]

22 hours ago, Butler said:

I like the speed control via  joystick.

 

I fear that may be a limiting factor if you put it down as a 'must have'.

[Butler]

On the subject of limitation, I have just purchased a loco that has  ( for me at least the first one ) more than 20 aux functions. As the Bachmann Ultima only caters for 20, i guess that means I can’t access them? Is that correct? 

Thanks

B

 

[Nigelcliffe]

12 hours ago, Butler said:

On the subject of limitation, I have just purchased a loco that has  ( for me at least the first one ) more than 20 aux functions. As the Bachmann Ultima only caters for 20, i guess that means I can’t access them? Is that correct? 

Thanks

B

 

They're beyond your controller.   There may be ways to work around it all, by moving functions around, but not simple. 

 

Really think that a new system will solve a lot of issues.  

 

 

- Nigel

[JimFin]

Cannot access anything beyond the first 20.