Completely flummoxed!!

[transferman]

Hiya,

 

This is concerning my 6 year old 00 gauge upon which I have just laid the first bit of track, a crossover about 600 mm long.

 

I have been disusing the problem I had with some DC Concepts SS point motors and controller.

 

Following guidance from DCC on a step by step basis it seems there was nothing wrong except for a missing track connection.

 

Trouble is that the locos stop intermittently 

 

and cause a short at certain places on the crossover.

 

DCC says this is probably incorrect back to back measurements casing the short.

 

I have tried 3 different locos and they all act in the same way.

 

How does one prove that incorrect gauge is causing the problem.

 

I have a Prodigy Advance and this has started acting up as well.

 

It doesn't control speed correctly and wouldn't stop even on the emergency button.

 

Although this controller is some years old now it has hardly been used.

 

It would be good to year if anyone has experience similar problem or has any idea how I should proceed.

 

Cheers, Chris

 

 

[DCB]

  More detail would be good but I'm assumimg its a diamond crossing.  If you lay a diamond with droppers and all the rails live it will short out when wheels bridge the positive and negative polarity rails. Its why I use live frog crossovers. To simplify matters use a double slip as a switched diamond   With DC you get a little spark and a momentary hestation, on DCC it shorts and trips. If DCC comcepts say its back to back why not reset your back to backs and try it?   You can't expect to take a 21st century OO "RTR" model out of its box and just run it .   Resetting Back to back, is a standard first step, Sticking the wheels in a drill chuck and coning the tyres is sometimes necessary, but that's the pleasure.   Have a look at Crewlisle.  That's how to make DCC work.  It won't make the DCC equipment sellers rich overnight but it certainly works.. 

[AndrueC]

My experience of issues with an insulated frog diamond:

It was fine until recently so my guess is that the higher average temperatures have made the difference.

[WIMorrison]

 

 

17 minutes ago, DavidCBroad said:

 

...

You can't expect to take a 21st century OO "RTR" model out of its box and just run it .   

...

 

Why on earth not? I certainly don't expect to do anything more than install a decoder in a new loco and for it to run perfectly

 

 

17 minutes ago, DavidCBroad said:

...

Resetting Back to back, is a standard first step, Sticking the wheels in a drill chuck and coning the tyres is sometimes necessary, but that's the pleasure.   .

..

 

I would definitely not be resetting back to back, and would never consider needing to take wheels from a loco and stick them into a drill chuck.

 

If you are happy doing, or feel that you need to do this to something you have paid a significant amount of money then I wonder why. I know many people that exhibit, and we have never had to do anything like you suggest for any loco, let alone a newly purchased model.

 

 

[Nigelcliffe]

There are two very different problems being described. 

 

One is a crossing/cross-over of some sort.  Knowing exactly what, or a photo, would help diagnosis.  Its probably a wheel just striking a bit of rail where it shouldn't possibly as per the diagram in posting #3 above.  
My view on wiring is treat it all as if hand-laid live-frog and you can't go wrong.  That means isolating rails, and switching the polarity of rails in crossings depending on the turnouts/route set, and not relying on "insulfrogs" or other bits of track power-routing.   
I think the Cobalt SS control module includes switches which can set the frog polarities, or if insufficient switches on the SS module, use one SS switch to operate relays to give enough switching.  

 

 

The fault on the Prodigy may be fairly simple:   if you can dismantle the case, then cleaning the contacts for the button, and some contact cleaner on the rotary encoder will probably fix it.  Alternatively, contact Gaugemaster who are usually very good at helping owners out with repairs and servicing of their controllers    (assuming its a Gaugemaster branded one, and not an imported MRC one.  If its an import, then discuss with MRC in the USA  ).  

 

 

- Nigel

[Andymsa]

1 hour ago, DavidCBroad said:

Resetting Back to back, is a standard first step, Sticking the wheels in a drill chuck and coning the tyres is sometimes necessary, but that's the pleasure.   Have a look at Crewlisle.  That's how to make DCC work.  It won't make the DCC equipment sellers rich overnight but it certainly works.. 

 

I am somewhat dismayed at this sort advice to put a brand new model in a drill chuck. I have over 300 different types of motive power and I not had reason to take them to a drill chuck ever. The best start is to lay track properly in the first place, and not to cut corners or rush things. Recently I purchased a new steam loco with sound costing around £300 it had a issue with running in one direction where there was a small jump did I think about fixing it, no it was returned to the seller.

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Andymsa

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, DavidCBroad said:

 You can't expect to take a 21st century OO "RTR" model out of its box and just run it . 

This takes some sort of biscuit for being the most ridiculous rubbish I have read in 12 years of RMweb. Take a bow!

[DCB]

10 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

This takes some sort of biscuit for being the most ridiculous rubbish I have read in 12 years of RMweb. Take a bow!

Well that's my experience over the past 20 years,  My Bachmann 45XX and Heljan locos have been trouble free thus far, but 90% of the new locos have had to be modified or returned.  Usually back to back issues, or guard irons foulding (2884 and 42XX)  causing derailments where other locos and stock ran perfectly.  There were mechanical failiures as well. A Bachmann 78XX managed about ten minuted before shedding a driving wheel and a Hornby 2884 about an hour before stripping its drive gear.  Worst of all was a brand new Wrenn 08 which failed within 6 feet of being unboxed when a wire fell off the commutator 35 years ago so maybe it wasn't always perfect.

 

11 hours ago, AndrueC said:

My experience of issues with an insulated frog diamond:

It was fine until recently so my guess is that the higher average temperatures have made the difference.

Shoring between the rails at the frog is exactly the issue.  If you have droppers on the rails leading to the frog it will short momentarily.  Losing the droppers and wiring so the rails not in use are DEAD as per insulfrog DC is a cure, alternatvely use live frogs, but that's what I do and it involves soldering 14 wires to a  4 pole relay which is a very fiddly job.

 

10 hours ago, Andymsa said:

 

I am somewhat dismayed at this sort advice to put a brand new model in a drill chuck. I have over 300 different types of motive power and I not had reason to take them to a drill chuck ever. The best start is to lay track properly in the first place, and not to cut corners or rush things. Recently I purchased a new steam loco with sound costing around £300 it had a issue with running in one direction where there was a small jump did I think about fixing it, no it was returned to the seller.

 

Same old excuse blame the track, Maunsell did it when his Rivers crashed.  But time after time every new loco we bought meant relaying bits of the layout on which 90 other locos worked perfectly.  You should be able to run, or at least run in a new loco straight out of the box but apart from a Heljan locos the last one to not need attetion was a Bachmann 45XX in about 1999. The drill chuck trick cured the Dapol Moguls propensity to fall on its side randomly. First I fitted Wrenn wheels which was ugly then I realised the tyre profile was flat unlike the coned Wrenn profile. Full size wheels are coned and steer round  corners as the outer wheel runs up the cone and the inner one down as the flange approached the rail head so the flange seldon makes contact.  Putting a slight coning on the tyres with a needle file and black and decker and supergluing the wheels in place in the axle muff is a quick and easy fix for split axle wheels.  

[Harlequin]

The OP asked about a 600mm long crossover, not a crossing, but we need to know what make of track, what parts, how well is it laid, how clean, etc. to be able to help.

 

Some photos would be useful.

 

How to test if back to back problems are causing shorts? Take one of the problem locos, measure the back to backs on all axles, change them if needed, run the loco through the crossover. If it no longer shorts after multiple test runs then B2B was the problem.

 

Locos not responding to the controller suggest that the decoders are unable to decode the DCC commands. There could be many reasons for that. We need to know what decoders and more details of how big the layout is and how it is wired up.

 

[Andymsa]

2 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

Same old excuse blame the track, Maunsell did it when his Rivers crashed.  But time after time every new loco we bought meant relaying bits of the layout on which 90 other locos worked perfectly.  You should be able to run, or at least run in a new loco straight out of the box but apart from a Heljan locos the last one to not need attetion was a Bachmann 45XX in about 1999. The drill chuck trick cured the Dapol Moguls propensity to fall on its side randomly. First I fitted Wrenn wheels which was ugly then I realised the tyre profile was flat unlike the coned Wrenn profile. Full size wheels are coned and steer round  corners as the outer wheel runs up the cone and the inner one down as the flange approached the rail head so the flange seldon makes contact.  Putting a slight coning on the tyres with a needle file and black and decker and supergluing the wheels in place in the axle muff is a quick and easy fix for split axle wheels.  

I don’t believe I was blaming the track, if track is laid with care then 90% of problems don’t occur. Some time ago I changed out a PECO setback curved point that two trains out of 300 derailed on. Did this mean the trains where defective no I replaced the point with a different point. Our new locos cost anyplace upwards £100 to 300 and more, if it does not work as expected then it should be returned if all buyers did this the retailers will return these or get fed up and not buy from the manufacturers. But as long as we have the mend and make do attitude then manufacturers won’t be inclined to produce reliable models.

[DCB]

3 hours ago, Andymsa said:

I don’t believe I was blaming the track, if track is laid with care then 90% of problems don’t occur. Some time ago I changed out a PECO setback curved point that two trains out of 300 derailed on. Did this mean the trains where defective no I replaced the point with a different point. Our new locos cost anyplace upwards £100 to 300 and more, if it does not work as expected then it should be returned if all buyers did this the retailers will return these or get fed up and not buy from the manufacturers. But as long as we have the mend and make do attitude then manufacturers won’t be inclined to produce reliable models.

I actually agree with 90% of this but when it's a design fault like the OO Dapol Mogul pony truck derailing which lots of people have complained about on RM web, you can send it back and get a refund or change it for another with the same issue, (Tyre profie) or you can apply a fix which takes 5 minutes (once you have found the tools) which took me a couple of hours to figure out through trial and error. 

[Andymsa]

12 minutes ago, DavidCBroad said:

I actually agree with 90% of this but when it's a design fault like the OO Dapol Mogul pony truck derailing which lots of people have complained about on RM web, you can send it back and get a refund or change it for another with the same issue, (Tyre profie) or you can apply a fix which takes 5 minutes (once you have found the tools) which took me a couple of hours to figure out through trial and error. 

but should we have to resort to finding fixes because Dapol got it wrong, if the model is defective users should return it, I’m sure if Dapol was overwhelmed with returns they would soon sort it  or get it right the next time.