What Gauges do I need for hand building track?

[Tortuga]

Wanting to build a layout where the track was a touch more realistic than that offered by a major manufacturer, I decided to have a go at building my own and purchased a few C&L point kits - mainly to avoid filing point blades and crossing vees!

Being a bit impulsive, I stupidly didn’t research what I was getting into and ordered kits with crossings that have a 1.0mm flangeway, which I now understand won’t allow reliable running of RTR stock (without increasing the b2b measurement), and standard C&L roller gauges.

If I understand things right, my options are:

1) Widen the b2b on my stock (wagons, not a problem; locos, a mix of Hornby and Bachmann; no coaches currently)

2) build the points with a wider checkrail gap (making the point appear asymmetric)

3) purchase some new common crossings for my kits that have a 1.25mm flangeway (I purchased the kits over the course of the last 2-3 years, so I doubt I’ll be able to swap them with C&L)

4) narrow the track gauge (is this 00-sf?) through the turnout, either within the turnout itself or on the track either side (which I’m unsure about how well I’ll be able to do)

 

My questions are:

1) will the supplied roller gauges enable me to build my track? (apart from option 4 - I realise I’ll need different ones if I choose that route)

2) do I need other gauges beside roller gauges?

 

Thanks in advance!

Nik

[Stephen Freeman]

Hi,

The rollergauges will be fine for plain track. For pointwork, you need crossing vee gauge strip, checkrail gauge and gauges be they 3 point or rollergauge. The 1.00mm crossings you have are fine for EM or 4F (00SF). Plenty of people have built their pointwork to 4F (00SF) and plain track to 16.5mm. A 20p coin will be fine for setting the pointblades. I should add that if you decide on 4F (00SF) the templates that came with the kits won't be right, solution is to use Templot of course.

 

Hope that helps.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Stephen Freeman
addition

[down the sdjr]

1 hour ago, Tortuga said:

4) narrow the track gauge (is this 00-sf?) 

00sf. Looks really good, I have not had a problem with modern RTR and 1 mm flange ways in 00sf.

Get into Templot, it is a thing of beauty.

[down the sdjr]

54 minutes ago, Stephen Freeman said:

A 20p coin will be fine for setting the pointblades.

That's a good tip. Thanks.

[Tortuga]

42 minutes ago, Stephen Freeman said:

Hi,

The rollergauges will be fine for plain track. For pointwork, you need crossing vee gauge strip, checkrail gauge and gauges be they 3 point or rollergauge. The 1.00mm crossings you have are fine for EM or 4F (00SF). Plenty of people have built their pointwork to 4F (00SF) and plain track to 16.5mm. A 20p coin will be fine for setting the pointblades. I should add that if you decide on 4F (00SF) the templates that came with the kits won't be right, solution is to use Templot of course.

 

Hope that helps.

Thanks! Just a couple of queries if I may?

1) is it 4F (00SF) which has a track gauge of 16.2mm through the turnout, but 16.5mm elsewhere? I keep getting lost with the different names for the various scale/gauge combinations!

2) could you elaborate on what you mean by “checkrail gauge and gauges”? I’d assumed roller gauges or a 3-way gauge were used to set the checkrail gap and I’m afraid you’ve lost me with the “crossing vee gauge strip”! Apologies for being so thick!

3) if I choose not to go down the 4F (00SF) route (I don’t want to go down the EM route!), from what you’re saying, I’ll have to go for a wider crossing gap?

 

Thanks for confirming about the 00 C&L templates by the way; I’d found out from elsewhere they don’t have the correct sleeper spacing - after finally laying all the point timbers out and permanently fixing one stock rail!

[Tortuga]

23 minutes ago, down the sdjr said:

00sf. Looks really good, I have not had a problem with modern RTR and 1 mm flange ways in 00sf.

Get into Templot, it is a thing of beauty.

I’m working at Templot! I managed to produce a crossover between a running line and a siding last night, so I’m getting there!

Stupid I know, but I’m worried I’ll either mess up the transition between 16.5mm to 16.2mm gauge and back and/or that 0.3mm narrowing will be glaringly obvious once I’ve finished. Kind of a “I-need-to-fully-model-the-back-of-this-building-even-though-it’s-hard-up-against-the-backscene-and-no-one-will-know-otherwise” situation, I’m afraid!

[Stephen Freeman]

13 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

Thanks! Just a couple of queries if I may?

1) is it 4F (00SF) which has a track gauge of 16.2mm through the turnout, but 16.5mm elsewhere? I keep getting lost with the different names for the various scale/gauge combinations!

2) could you elaborate on what you mean by “checkrail gauge and gauges”? I’d assumed roller gauges or a 3-way gauge were used to set the checkrail gap and I’m afraid you’ve lost me with the “crossing vee gauge strip”! Apologies for being so thick!

3) if I choose not to go down the 4F (00SF) route (I don’t want to go down the EM route!), from what you’re saying, I’ll have to go for a wider crossing gap?

 

Thanks for confirming about the 00 C&L templates by the way; I’d found out from elsewhere they don’t have the correct sleeper spacing - after finally laying all the point timbers out and permanently fixing one stock rail!

1) track gauge 16.2mm - you can use 16.5mm for plain track if you wish.

2) the checkrail gauge is usually a type of rollergauge but it isn't recommended to try and use it for plain track because setting the track gauge would be difficult. The gauge strip is just that - a 1.00 mm thick piece of metal strip

3) yes

 

I think everything is covered in more detail on Templot club.

 

[Dungrange]

13 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

Thanks! Just a couple of queries if I may?

1) is it 4F (00SF) which has a track gauge of 16.2mm through the turnout, but 16.5mm elsewhere? I keep getting lost with the different names for the various scale/gauge combinations!

2) could you elaborate on what you mean by “checkrail gauge and gauges”? I’d assumed roller gauges or a 3-way gauge were used to set the checkrail gap and I’m afraid you’ve lost me with the “crossing vee gauge strip”! Apologies for being so thick!

3) if I choose not to go down the 4F (00SF) route (I don’t want to go down the EM route!), from what you’re saying, I’ll have to go for a wider crossing gap?

 

Thanks for confirming about the 00 C&L templates by the way; I’d found out from elsewhere they don’t have the correct sleeper spacing - after finally laying all the point timbers out and permanently fixing one stock rail!

 

4F (00-SF) has a track gauge of 16.2 mm.  Technically, it is 16.2 mm everywhere.  However, in practice, most people use 16.5 mm flexitrack away from the turnouts because they can't be bothered building 16.2 mm gauge plain track.  In that case, there is a need for a 0.15 mm transition on each side of the centreline between the two standards (00-SF and 00) - I doubt you'll be able to see that transition, especially if you make it over a few sleepers.

 

A checkrail gauge is to position the checkrail relative to the opposite stock rail.  This is therefore dependent on which standard you are using.  Roller gauges just give you a fixed track gauge, whereas a three-point gauge will give you gauge widened track where effective gauge will increase as you tighten the radius.  The "crossing vee strip" is just setting the wing rails relative to the crossing vee, but if you are using preassembled crossings, then I don't think you'll require this.

 

The 1mm wide flangeway gaps are suitable for EM, 4F (00-SF) and 00 Finescale (which is what the C&L kits are sold for).  4F (00-SF) is the only one of these that will usually work with commercial back-to-back standards.  If you want to build 16.5 mm gauge pointwork and not modify ready to run stock, then you need to work to the Double O Gauge Association (DOGA) intermediate standard, which is to have a flangeway gap of 1.3 mm, which is in line with commercial pointwork such as Peco Steamline.

 

The choice really depends on what you are trying to achieve.

[Tortuga]

@Stephen Freeman and @DungrangeThanks for clearing that up. I feel like a right muppet for having to ask these questions - it like I decided to run through a nettle patch barefoot!

Looks like I either need to purchase some new crossing assemblies or some 4F (00SF) roller gauges - can I live with a 0.3mm narrower track gauge or with a 0.25mm wider crossing gap?

Edited June 3, 2021 by Tortuga
Additional thanks

[down the sdjr]

24 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

I’m working at Templot! I managed to produce a crossover between a running line and a siding last night, so I’m getting there!

Stupid I know, but I’m worried I’ll either mess up the transition between 16.5mm to 16.2mm gauge and back and/or that 0.3mm narrowing will be glaringly obvious once I’ve finished. Kind of a “I-need-to-fully-model-the-back-of-this-building-even-though-it’s-hard-up-against-the-backscene-and-no-one-will-know-otherwise” situation, I’m afraid!

You can barely see the 0.3 mm difference. I use Peco bullhead flexi track in 16.5 mm and make the difference on the last sleeper as it meets the turnout. You can't really see it but the 1 mm flange ways look really good.

[Tortuga]

Just now, down the sdjr said:

You can barely see the 0.3 mm difference. I use Peco bullhead flexi track in 16.5 mm and make the difference on the last sleeper as it meets the turnout. You can't really see it but the 1 mm flange ways look really good.

Hmm. That does look good. And not noticeable - just like the gauge widening on curves isn’t noticeable on the real thing either...

I suppose I’m not going to be looking down on the track or along it’s length the majority of the time, so it’ll be even less obvious...

Plus £14.40 vs £196.60...

[Siberian Snooper]

Have a look at the Eastwood Town thread, for the lowdown on 4of/00sf, sorry not able to post a link at this time. 

 

Gordon has built some fantastic S & C in it, through the iterations of the layout over the years. 

 

It's a pity that he's still currently in hospital after having an op on his liver, that has laid him low for a good few weeks now.  

 

 

[martin_wynne]

Hi Nik,

 

The name 4-SF is now deprecated and reverted to 00-SF in Templot, and mostly everywhere else.

 

I regret I was badgered into changing it to 4-SF instead of 00 by some of the members on here who have a religious belief in 16.5mm for 00.

 

If you have purchased C&L 00 kits and not yet built them, what you need to do if you don't want to adjust your wheels is:

 

1. discard the supplied templates and print new ones in 00-SF from Templot.

 

2. on the gauges supplied, fill in the inner 2 slots with epoxy or some other filler so that you don't accidentally use them. Use the outer slots where you need to build 16.5mm plain track, such as on sharp curves below about 30" radius (if you are not using 16.5mm flexi-track).

 

3. obtain a set of 15.2mm 00-SF check rail roller gauges. These are used to set the check rails opposite your existing ready-built V-crossings. This is the most critical setting. If necessary you can build the rest by eye from the template, but the check rails must be accurately set with gauges.

 

4. if you are using plastic chairs, fix the check rails first as above before adding the stock rails.

 

5. obtain a set of 16.2mm 00-SF roller gauges for the remaining parts of the kit.

 

6. if the V-crossings were not ready-built, you would also need a 1.0mm thick V-crossing flangeway gauge shim. But if they are ready-built with 1.0mm flangeways you won't need it.

 

7. to connect 16.5mm flexi-track to your 16.2mm 00-SF turnouts, attach it with fishplates and warm the rails on the last inch or so with a soldering iron until the chairs soften and the rails can adjust to the slight gauge change. Hold it down flat while it cools.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Edited June 3, 2021 by martin_wynne

[martin_wynne]

3 hours ago, Stephen Freeman said:

A 20p coin will be fine for setting the pointblades.

 

This applies if you build the turnout to 16.2mm all-through (recommended).

 

Some modellers prefer to use 16.2mm for the crossing part only, and 16.5mm for the rest of the turnout. If you do that, a 20p coin is not thick enough, use a 10p coin instead.

 

Martin.

[Tortuga]

Thank you gentlemen for all your advice and guidance. I think my course of action is now clear.

Since I am a tight-fisted Yorkshire lad at heart, I’ll take the route of least expenditure and get hold of a set of 00-SF roller gauges and build my point work to 00-SF, but stick with 16.5mm flexi-track for the plain track - I’ve already got some C&L flexi-track and I intend to use 00/H0 PECO Code 75 flexi-track and points in the fiddle yards as I have some left from previous layout attempts.

I’ll order the gauges and, since I’ve already laid two kits-worth of turnout timbers, some more timbers as well (plus some 4-bolt chairs - clearer prototype trackwork photographs having caused the discovery that I’d ordered kits with the wrong chairs).
While I wait for those, I can wrestle with Templot to produce suitable templates.

[Wayne Kinney]

2 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

 

This applies if you build the turnout to 16.2mm all-through (recommended).

 

Some modellers prefer to use 16.2mm for the crossing part only, and 16.5mm for the rest of the turnout. If you do that, a 20p coin is not thick enough, use a 10p coin instead.

 

Martin.

Ah! Half price!

[AndyID]

15 hours ago, down the sdjr said:

 1 mm flange ways look really good.

 

Yes, the narrower flange-way is much more obvious than the reduced gauge.

 

The gauge is reduced from 16.5 to 16.2 which is only 1.8% but the flange-ways are reduced by a much greater percentage - probably 13%.

[roythebus1]

You my want to consider the new point kits mentioned at the top of the page by Wayne Kinney, they'll save you the expense of buying track gauges and a lot of time! and all the parts are ready-machined and cast for you.

Edited June 9, 2021 by roythebus1
typo

[hayfield]

On 03/06/2021 at 10:28, Tortuga said:

Wanting to build a layout where the track was a touch more realistic than that offered by a major manufacturer, I decided to have a go at building my own and purchased a few C&L point kits - mainly to avoid filing point blades and crossing vees!

Being a bit impulsive, I stupidly didn’t research what I was getting into and ordered kits with crossings that have a 1.0mm flangeway, which I now understand won’t allow reliable running of RTR stock (without increasing the b2b measurement), and standard C&L roller gauges.

If I understand things right, my options are:

1) Widen the b2b on my stock (wagons, not a problem; locos, a mix of Hornby and Bachmann; no coaches currently)

2) build the points with a wider checkrail gap (making the point appear asymmetric)

3) purchase some new common crossings for my kits that have a 1.25mm flangeway (I purchased the kits over the course of the last 2-3 years, so I doubt I’ll be able to swap them with C&L)

4) narrow the track gauge (is this 00-sf?) through the turnout, either within the turnout itself or on the track either side (which I’m unsure about how well I’ll be able to do)

 

My questions are:

1) will the supplied roller gauges enable me to build my track? (apart from option 4 - I realise I’ll need different ones if I choose that route)

2) do I need other gauges beside roller gauges?

 

Thanks in advance!

Nik

 

Sorry for being a bit late to this thread

 

Be very careful with the C&L 00 gauge roller gauges. Phil inherited a stock of 16.5 mm roller gauges with 1mm flangeways. These are fine for plain track and stock rails, but the check rails are set to DOGA fine standards (which will need wheelsets to be re-gauged). As I said these(older gauges) are fine for plain track and stock rails in 00 gauge. The new range of roller gauges are available with 1.25 mm flangeway gaps

 

As you have common crossings with 1mm flangeways and use Templot, just buy a couple of 00SF roller gauges and a couple of check rail gauges. The check rail gauges can be used for both 00 and 00SF as they are the same for both gauge variants, the two roller gauges will be a lot cheaper than buying new common crossings. Build your turnouts with 16.2 track gauge through the crossings, few will notice the difference and operation may even be better. Always set your check rails with the check rail gauges, whether you model in 00 or 00SF. 

 

If you buy pre-made common crossings you will not need wing rail gauges, also unless you have very small radii on your layout 3 point gauges should not be needed