C & O line coaching in the BR era.

[design8027]

Looking for photo's and/or info on whether any exLMS and exLNER coaches were mixed together working over the C&O to Oban (and later on over the WHL) in the 1950's and 60's? Most evidence shows the LMS built coaches sticking to the Oban line and the LNER built coaches running to Fort William.

[62613]

The gangway connections on LMS and LNE carriages were incompatible, in that the first used British Standard Gangways, and the other used Pullman gangways; so their gangwayed stock wasn't normally coupled together in the same train.

 

[Grovenor]

Ignoring the C & O because I don't know the specifics but LMS and GW coaches had gangway adapters to allow coupling to pullman gangways and such mixtures were common in the 50s and 60s.

[The Johnster]

A coach with Pullman gangways can be and very frequently was coupled to British Standard gangwayed stock.  The buckeye coupler in the Pullman gangwayed vehicle is hinged and held in position with a pin, the removal of which allows the buckeye coupling to drop down revealing a conventional drawhook which can accept the screw coupling of the British Standard vehicle. 
 

The buffers on the PG are normally retracted and serve no function when it is coupled with the buckeyes to another PG (since the buckeyes act as buffers as well as couplings), but can be pulled out to a ‘normal’ position to operate as buffers when the coach is coupled to a BS one.  Collars are placed over the shanks to enable this, which hang on hooks and chains beneath the buffers when not in use.  The gangways were connected with adaptors as Grosvenor has said. 
 

This was normal everyday practice and did not require any special arrangements or instructions. The PG stock’s guards’ compartments carried spare screw, not buckeye, emergency couplings, painted red. All screw, Instanter, and 3-link chain couplings had a flat cast in to the inner link so that they could be removed from the drawhook and replaced easily.  
 

All UK standard gauge locomotive hauled coaching stock could couple to and run with each other. 

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

....... All screw, Instanter, and 3-link chain couplings had a flat cast in to the inner link so that they could be removed from the drawhook and replaced easily.  

 

All UK standard gauge locomotive hauled coaching stock could couple to and run with each other. 

The 'Gedge' hook allowing couplings to be removed through a slot was far from universal - though very much the norm by nationalisation.

 

As has been pointed out above, Pullman gangwayed stock can couple with British Standard gangways IF they are fitted with adaptors .... but, again, this wasn't universal by nationalisation .............. then B.R. made things even more complicated with first generation railcars - which never had adaptors  -  apart from the Inter City ones which had Pullman gangways .......

[Bomag]

Getting back to Oban via Killin services, the Carter LMS formation book has the 1958 07:55 to Oban from Glasgow as LMS stock

BCK/SK/CK/BSK/CK/BSK/TSO/Obs

By 1964 the set was Mk1s

BCK/3xSK/CK/BSK/SO/Obs

 

In both cases the observation car was listed as the ex Devon belle  M280M/M281M although I am not certain this is correct for 1958. They had Pullman corridor connections.

 

Also shown in a Photo was a Oban service at Killin in May 1960 with both Mk1 and Period 3 stock.

 

The inference from various sources was that under BR until the C&O was closed there was one morning service from Queen Street (as opposed to Buchanan Street). I have no idea what is was formed from although WHL seamed to get Mk1s earlier than the ex LMS lines.

 

 

 

[Wickham Green too]

9 hours ago, Bomag said:

..... In both cases the observation car was listed as the ex Devon belle  M280M/M281M although I am not certain this is correct for 1958. They had Pullman corridor connections. ....

'fraid not ..... the Devon Belle Cars were rebuilt from post WW1 Cars rebuilt from L.N.W.R Ambulance Cars - which had B.S. gangways ( with adaptors ).

[design8027]

Found a photo in the book: “The West Highland Lines” by Robert Robotham, a loco with some empty stock sits at Oban (1960) with some Gresley coaches in the background, my monies on it being the BR TV Train.

[design8027]

Who has good eyesight? What build is the second coach?

[balders]

19 hours ago, design8027 said:

Who has good eyesight? What build is the second coach?

LMS P3

 

Regards

 

Guy

[Zomboid]

And there was me wondering what relevance the BR era had on the Chesapeake & Ohio...

[design8027]

4 hours ago, Zomboid said:

And there was me wondering what relevance the BR era had on the Chesapeake & Ohio...

Chessie.

[design8027]

5 hours ago, balders said:

LMS P3

 

Regards

 

Guy

Anything similar by Bachmann or Hornby? At least you can mix LMS and LNER on rare occasions. 

[Argos]

On 08/06/2021 at 20:18, design8027 said:

Looking for photo's and/or info on whether any exLMS and exLNER coaches were mixed together working over the C&O to Oban

Hi Design8027,

 

I've been researching the C&O line at various stages in history for a while, with a couple of layouts at differing stages of build.

 

LNER Thompson non-corridor designs operated the Ballachulish and Killin branches from around 1962 .

There are plenty of photos around of these.

The Thompson coaches may have run with LMS designs on the Ballachulish line. Maybe just such a mix here?

 

 

A ex NBR carriage was parked down at Loch Tay on the Killin branch for a while, I think it was used as a mess hut.

 

 

The Scottish Region TV train also operated on the route which was made up predominantly LNER design coaches with a couple of BR coaches (MK1s?).

 

Some information here:

 

In the late 50s an ex LNER beaver tailed observation car was used on the line for a few years before being replaced by one of the refurbished Devon Belle cars

 

 

Finally, the C&O had a notoriously variable loading depending on the time of year and holiday calendar with standard rakes of four coaches expanded to ten or more.  You get the impression that at times any coaching stock available was pressed into use.

Whilst in the main LMS designs were used, the odd LNER design did pop up. From my limited knowledge of LNER coaches these seem to be Gresley corridor thirds, but happy to be corrected.

 

example here

 

 

Hope that helps!

[balders]

9 hours ago, design8027 said:

Anything similar by Bachmann or Hornby? At least you can mix LMS and LNER on rare occasions. 

Mainline made a couple I recall in maroon, Replica did an open in maroon which come up occasionally, Airfix did some in LMS livery that need work and Bachmann do in crimson and cream.....and now maroon....in open and brake formats. If you've got a deep wallet

 

Cheers

 

Guy

[Argos]

On 09/06/2021 at 22:53, Bomag said:

In both cases the observation car was listed as the ex Devon belle  M280M/M281M although I am not certain this is correct for 1958. They had Pullman corridor connections.

Hi Bomag,

I seem to recall that the LNER cars in the post above were still in use in 1958 with the Devon Belle cars appearing later.

 

Wikipedia suggest 1961 was the change over date over date.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devon_Belle

[60B]

On 26/06/2021 at 10:02, Argos said:

 

 

A ex NBR carriage was parked down at Loch Tay on the Killin branch for a while, I think it was used as a mess hut.

 

 

 

I very nearly started a thread to try identify this as it pops up in a BTF film about BRS with it parked up in the bay at Killin. I can find that it was a NBR 58' 4" third but not the diagram.: 

 

[hexagon789]

On 09/06/2021 at 22:53, Bomag said:

The inference from various sources was that under BR until the C&O was closed there was one morning service from Queen Street (as opposed to Buchanan Street). I have no idea what is was formed from although WHL seamed to get Mk1s earlier than the ex LMS lines.

There was an 'Express diesel service', with miniature buffet car, from Queen Street making limited stops to Oban by the early the 1960s. In 1962 it was 9.35am off Queen Street and 5.15pm back; Mon-Fri only.