Lenz LZV100 Flashing Light

[Alastair Mair]

I am a newbie modeller, so please excuse the probably stupid question(s).

I have built a DCC layout that I have been using a borrrowed Lenz LZV100 as the controller.  I have been able to use the controller successfully to run chipped diesels and to change points.  However, after some recent construction work in making a lifting section, I now have some issues when trying to run again..... 

a) when I run a diesel it runs on my layout slowly ( it runs OK on my programming track )

b) after a short while - varying between 30 seconds and 2 minutes, the LZV100 system goes into an error mode eg light flashing slowly, requiring a reset, which then is ok for the same sort of period of time, then the flashing reccurs.

My thoughts are that it can't be a short, as it doesn't happen straight away, but I haven't any electircal knowledge to support this.

Anyone got any suggestions.

[RFS]

Sounds like you have a short that is not drawing enough current to trip the LZV100 on its own. Running the loco seems to be doing that eventually. Suggest you look very carefully round the layout, in particular look for a hot spot where you've been making changes. Are any rails warm, or are there any warm wires? 

 

 

[Alastair Mair]

Unfortunately it happens even if I am not running the train :-(  ....   Only about 100m of track to check then !!!

The bit of the layout I am running on hasn't really changed.  Apart from wiring in the "approaches" to the lifting section (there are four tracks crossing) I haven't (knowingly) changed anything...

And I haven't put the lifting section in place ...

 

 

 

 

[Nigelcliffe]

Consider *everything* you've been doing between it working and not working.  For example, laying ballast with PVA based glue could be your problem (PVA => acidic and water soluble => conducts electricity until its completely dry).    Or it could be a stray wire (but I'd expect that to get hot and burn through).  Or a tool left on the track (indicating not only you have a short, but your wiring isn't up to standard because a short should shut things down, sub-standard wiring means the wiring stops maximum current flowing). 

 

The description sounds like a current draw somewhere which is just shy of maximum current. 

 

You can test the Lenz system by disconnecting from the layout and trying it on an independent short (single length) of track.  If that works, its not the Lenz system at fault. 

 

 

[RFS]

If you have 100m of track what size DCC bus do you have (ie wire gauge size)? And do you have plenty of droppers - ideally one track feed per rail section? Once you have solved this particular issue, I'd recommend doing the "coin test". This means going round the layout with a coin or piece of wire, and deliberately shorting the layout at various places, especially round turnouts and places furthest from the LZV100.  The command station needs to trip immediately, otherwise the wiring at that location is not up to standard and needs to be upgraded. The coin whose short doesn't trip the command station could otherwise be your prized loco whose innards get fried by the heat from the short!  

Edited August 13, 2021 by RFS

[Alastair Mair]

The Lenz system itself must be ok because it works fine on my programming track.  Nothing (I can see) is on the track, and I've hoovered all round it.  I have only a little ballasting so far, and that has been down for weeks, and I have run trains quite happily in the past.  The track has worked fine previously in both DC and DCC without the lifting section, and indeed it worked in DC and DCC with it down with a temporararily laid track while I was in "design" mode.

I'm using N-gauge Peco Code 55 track and turnouts.  I have droppers on every section.  I have a separate track bus to the points power. I wired the track following advice from Peco (they marked up my track plan to show power feeds, isolators, etc., and as it has all worked before I am confident it isn't any basic wiring issue, or problem with inadequate capacity on the bus.  I have used Guagemaster DCC80's for the frogs, I have 2 reverse loops on the track controlled by Tam Valley Hex Juicers, and I have used DCC Concepts Terminators on the end of my two track bus spurs. It is housed in a 14' x 8' shed, plan attached.

After I had built the lifting section I tested it both in isolation and in situ, using a Guagemaster DC control with an unchipped diesel to sort out any gremlins from that latest work, and then with the lifting section down I ran more tests on other parts of the track quite happily.  I was running my tests in DC as I didn't want to accidentally damage a DCC chipped diesel (as I advised at the start, I am a novice) !  This all ran fine at "normal" power, no shorts detected.

I ran out of time before I could test all the track, and it is only since I came back to resume testing yesterday (with the lifting section raised) that I've had the problems.  The Guagemaster DC control shares the same symptoms as the Lenz e.g. low power to track, then eventually goes to "red".  I am not an electrical expert, but it seems like something is initially "resisting" getting full power to the track, which then builds build up over a short time. I have hoovered all round the track, so the only thing I can think of is some loose connection under the boards, but could it still be a stray piece of debris causing the problem on the track?

 

[Alastair Mair]

The system was in the same state this morning when I resumed the problem finding, but I was able to find a few detached track droppers to re-solder one one board adjacent to my lifting section, including one to one of my reversing loops, and one frog juicer under the board.  I also removed 4 Cobalt IP Digital motors - they had not retained their address, and when I contacted DCC Concepts they acknowledged there was a problem with some of the motors produced in 2018 (I bought theseearly 2019) and asked me to send them so they can repair them.

When I reconnected the track I found that the diesels, and after a bit of research found that I could increase the output from the system using CV7 on the Lenz unit, which I did, and it's now working a treat.

Thank you anyway to RFS and Nigelcliffe for your thoughts - they did help my analysis of what might be wrong.... 

[RFS]

40 minutes ago, Alastair Mair said:

Thank you anyway to RFS and Nigelcliffe for your thoughts - they did help my analysis of what might be wrong.... 

 

Glad you found the cause of your problem.  It's a very large layout for one LZV100, so some of your droppers are going to be a long way from it, so I do recommend  performing the coin test to make sure the wiring is OK.

[Nigelcliffe]

2 hours ago, Alastair Mair said:

The system was in the same state this morning when I resumed the problem finding, but I was able to find a few detached track droppers to re-solder one one board adjacent to my lifting section, including one to one of my reversing loops, and one frog juicer under the board.  I also removed 4 Cobalt IP Digital motors - they had not retained their address, and when I contacted DCC Concepts they acknowledged there was a problem with some of the motors produced in 2018 (I bought theseearly 2019) and asked me to send them so they can repair them.

When I reconnected the track I found that the diesels, and after a bit of research found that I could increase the output from the system using CV7 on the Lenz unit, which I did, and it's now working a treat.

Thank you anyway to RFS and Nigelcliffe for your thoughts - they did help my analysis of what might be wrong.... 

 

I don't think that increasing the track voltage on a Lenz LZV100, when used for N-gauge, is a way to solve problems.  Its more likely to stress things like decoders and motors (including the turnout motors).   If you're really consuming the output of a 5A system on an N gauge layout of the size you've drawn, then you have a fault.   N gauge locos need less than 0.25A.   

 

 

[Alastair Mair]

Nigel,

 

I didn’t explain that the reason I changed the setting on the Lenz LZV100 was because I thought I had inadvertently changed it when using the handset flipping between running my diesels and changing points (not looking at what I was doing).  I set it to the default value as advised in the manual (16V = C7=50, then 32).  I have since lowered this so I get 12.4V on my programming track, but I only get 11.2V on my layout (but no flashing light at all).  We had a meeting of my N gauge Society group this week, and a very experienced modeller acquaintance explained that I had something that was “drawing” power off, and told me that the problem will be one of three things - reversers, frog juicers, or point blade connections.  I built my layout in sections, but it is now all fixed down, so I have two challenges in tracking the problem down - any work I have to do is from below, lying on my back, and because I built it so the boards won’t be lifted, I have track that runs continuously across board joins, so can’t readily or easily isolate sections. Ho hum !!!!

 

Nigel and RFS,

 

I am aware that the total length of my track is approaching the limit for the scale, but while I was designing it I did consult with Peco Technical Department, who thought it probably should be OK without any boosters; I get consistent voltage readings across all parts, so I think I am OK .... so far, that is, until I decide to add more track, which I’m reliably told will happen at some point in my modelling life !!!!