The strange British Rail locomotive tail light delusion

[andyman7]

I went with my son to the Crewe Heritage Centre today, an enjoyable visit. There was a severed Class 47 cab that one could sit in and whilst the boy sat in the driving seat I perused the various switches, including one clearly marked Tail Light - with a forward position 'Left'; a centre 'Off'; and a lower position 'Right'. This slightly triggered my obsessive irritation that  both lights illuminate simultaneously on any modern superdetail diesel or electric of the pre-1990s era even though the photo I took demonstrates that it wasn't even physically possible (let alone in the rule book) for this to be the case. What's the betting that Bachmann's brand new 47 - with, in deluxe form, tinted windows, separate rotating fans, every body variation catered for, interior cab detail, engine room detail etc etc etc, will still come with either both red lights illuminated or none at all on the pre-1990 versions? I live in hope of not having to dig out the black Sharpie or masking tape....

Edited August 30, 2021 by andyman7

[w124bob]

They were rewired on the class 47 in the late 90's, to both lit which ever L or R was used. As for the model I simply disconnect all tail lights(and sometimes front lights as well), despite being a DCC user. I model the late pre TOPS period and from experince daylight means the lights for headcodes are near useless and tailights not much better. It's a 8 40 watt bulbs (one of which will be out!) shining through a black canvas roll and then a dirty glass fly covered panel, tailights are not much better. On English Electric locos  L & R tailights were separate switches, on disc fitted classes thats seven switches per end! 

Edited August 30, 2021 by w124bob

[Zomboid]

On a 45 they're separately switched.

[Strathyre]

When I worked at Eastfield in the late 70s none of the locos had a single switch that operated both tail lights simultaneously - the rules required only one to be lit at a time (with one notable exception...) and it was very rare to see both on

 

All the locos I worked on (08, 20, 25, 26, 27, 37) had a switch for each tail light. Only the 47 differed in having a two position throw switch that operated one or the other, as shown in the photo.

 

This actually caused a problem when they introduced class 47/7s on the E&G as the exception mentioned earlier was the E&G push-pulls, where the requirement was for both tail lams to be switched on, easy to do on a 27. Unfortunately the 47/7s couldn't do this and, until they were rewired, the loco, when trailing (almost always from Edinburgh to Glasgow, thanks to another wee rule concerning Cowlairs Tunnel), had to have an oil tail lamp on the lamp iron as well as the (one) electric tail light switch on.

 

Hope this helps

 

Paul

[Grovenor]

Did the tail light switches work the lights at that end or the other end?

[96701]

13 minutes ago, Grovenor said:

Did the tail light switches work the lights at that end or the other end?

That end.

[The Johnster]

Depended on the class.  The tail light switch on a 47 worked the light at that end, but the one on a 37 worked the one at the other end.  It was normal, if you'd been acting secondman taking a 47 off Canton in the 70s, for the guard to go up into the rear cab to extinguish the loco tail lamp when the train was coupled to, even if he was going to ride in a brake van and not the rear cab, though strictly speaking this was the driver's job and we were not to touch any of the controls when riding rear cab.

[F-UnitMad]

On 30/08/2021 at 21:37, w124bob said:

As for the model I simply disconnect all tail lights(and sometimes front lights as well),

I've done that with my Heljan O diesels, still 'only' 12v DC. In one or two it's just disconnecting the plastic connections, in my 31 at least, removal has been much more 'physical', and difficult to put back (as I've lost some of the bits!!). Probably destroyed the resale value, but I'm not bothered about that.

I've done it for the same reason - my memories of BR Blue do not include retina-searing domino or marker lamps. Only refurbished 50s and 87s had a high power headlight - and Far North 26s, but I never saw any of those at Birmingham New Street.....

[Strathyre]

10 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Depended on the class.  The tail light switch on a 47 worked the light at that end, but the one on a 37 worked the one at the other end.  It was normal, if you'd been acting secondman taking a 47 off Canton in the 70s, for the guard to go up into the rear cab to extinguish the loco tail lamp when the train was coupled to, even if he was going to ride in a brake van and not the rear cab, though strictly speaking this was the driver's job and we were not to touch any of the controls when riding rear cab.

the 26s were the same - operated at the opposite end, whereas the 27s operated at that end! English Electrics (37/20) always operated at the opposite end although I can't remember is the 40s did - too long ago! I think they did though.

 

[Wheatley]

I'm with Bob, the few of mine which have lights are all permanently switched off, with wire cutters where there's no switch. Light deisels carried oil tail lamps in my era anyway, the newfangled electricity not being used at all.  

[40052]

4 hours ago, Strathyre said:

the 26s were the same - operated at the opposite end, whereas the 27s operated at that end! English Electrics (37/20) always operated at the opposite end although I can't remember is the 40s did - too long ago! I think they did though.

 

Class 40 tail lights operated opposite end, class 45/46 same end (each tail light had its own switch) - not sure about 31s - as above, it's a long time since I worked on any of these.

 

I see on the Bachmann thread that their new 47 illuminates both tail lights so somebody is going to be busy with the black marker pen!

[keefer]

And not too OT but any first gen DMU before 1982(?) would only have a proper tail lamp on the back. Electric lamps were not allowed before then (something to do with not having battery back-up for the built-in lights)

Edited September 2, 2021 by keefer

[Ken.W]

On 02/09/2021 at 16:27, keefer said:

And not too OT but any first gen DMU before 1982(?) would only have a proper tail lamp on the back. Electric lamps were not allowed before then (something to do with not having battery back-up for the built-in lights)

 

Yes it was about 1982  and until then first gen DMUs didn't have electric tail lamps. The marker lights contained two white bulbs, so that if one failed you could switch over to the other. The change to electric tail lamps was done by swapping one of the bulbs for a red one.

The vehicles lighting did run off the batteries

[Davexoc]

On 02/09/2021 at 16:27, keefer said:

And not too OT but any first gen DMU before 1982(?) would only have a proper tail lamp on the back. Electric lamps were not allowed before then (something to do with not having battery back-up for the built-in lights)

 

The class 117s didn't have proper marker lights either, even some of the early refubished examples weren't fitted with them.

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by Davexoc
Photo restored

[markw]

On 22/10/2021 at 03:08, Ken.W said:

 

Yes it was about 1982  and until then first gen DMUs didn't have electric tail lamps. The marker lights contained two white bulbs, so that if one failed you could switch over to the other. The change to electric tail lamps was done by swapping one of the bulbs for a red one.

The vehicles lighting did run off the batteries

DMUs had the tail lamp modification done from the mid 70s.

I think as the guard was responsible for the tail lamp and the switch was in the drivers cab it took untill 81
? To get union agreement to use them.

[Bittern]

On 22/10/2021 at 12:38, Ken.W said:

Yes it was about 1982  and until then first gen DMUs didn't have electric tail lamps

ISTR that the 4-wheel railbuses had electric tail lights from new, but that in at least  one class they were both switched together. Having both on was a violation of the rules, because it counted as having two tail lamps, and somewhere I read  an anecdote of a signalman who would stop one every time it passed. I don't know if the solution was a local rule or just not using the electric lamps and using an oil lamp instead..

[stewartingram]

I lived in Cambridge when the W&M railbuses were about. I never saw one with electric lights on the rear, they were always an oil lamp.

 

Stewart

[RANGERS]

1 hour ago, stewartingram said:

I lived in Cambridge when the W&M railbuses were about. I never saw one with electric lights on the rear, they were always an oil lamp.

 

Stewart

Not sure if they were ever used but the W&M rail buses had a red filter which could be placed over the headlight in lieu of a fixed red light.

[The Johnster]

The red filter discs were a feature of all 1st generation dmus with the 6”(?) diameter marker lights.  The lamp housing had a protruding relief on the bottom half with a slot into which the filters were placed.  When the filters weren’t being used (and I never saw them being used in 8 years as a guard in the 70s), they were stowed in a wooden fitting with slots for them on the front of the control desk in the cab.  
 

The reason for their not being used as tail lamps was the ‘one tail lamp only’ rule; using one filter would have resulted in showing a white light to the rear as well as the red because the markers were wired to a single switch and came on together, I think along with the headcode and destination blind backlights but don’t quote me on that.  I left an idea for blank obscuring discs in the suggestion box, but never heard anything back. 
 

Another reason might have been the possibility of the discs bouncing out of the slots; they were not secured in any way and relied on gravity to stay where they were put. 

[Covkid]

I think there is a great deal of regional variance on the topic of tail lamps.   My career started down the Cambrian in 1978 when signalmen needed the tail lamp to prove train complete, and this was the big white metal paraffin lamp.  Our porters had the job of filling and maintaining the lamps in good order.  Our traction was 95% DMMUs and even though they had the slot to carry the red shades, I never saw one in all my career from 1978. 

 

Diesel locomotives which I became acquainted with displayed just one red on the rear when light engine, and it was switched off with a train on the drawhook.  As per the photo, class 47s originally switched one of the other, until modified. As a general rule EEs switched the opposite end whereas Sulzers switched the same end - differences of course, especially from the 1980s onwards.  I am guessing 50s were like other EEs and switched the opposite end. 

 

From a modelling perspective I think manufacturers should design circuitry so that a DCC circuit can map one of both lights onto a DCC circuit - because it should be easy enough. Dip switches under the fuel tanks should only be for DC modellers IMHO.