The US based UK-style modelling conundrum

[AltDelete]

Hi folks, I just stumbled upon this wonderfully active community and thought I might pick your collective brains to help me solve a challenge I'm currently facing.

 

I'm an expat living in the US, and just recently got into the hobby. I designed and started building a layout, based loosely on a Woodland Scenics layout kit (the Grand Valley for anyone interested) but significantly expanded in scale. The theme revolves around British era-5/late crest BR. 

 

I'm at the stage where I'm permanently laying and ballasting track in parts, and until now hadn't actually put much thought to the code. I originally went with atlas HO code-83 because there was a track pack for the Grand Valley layout. I believe that historically speaking, the most popular code was 100 in the UK, but for aesthetics many people are going with code-75 as it's more true to scale. 

 

My question is; since I'm going to be using mostly British rolling stock, machined in the last 5/10 years, other than not being true to scale and not looking as good, am I going to run into any issues with code-83? I'm concerned about stability of the locos on the track especially around tight radius curves, the reliability of the electrical pickups, and performance over frog points and such. I guess what I'm getting at is, should I just scrap code 83 in favor of 75 before it's too late? 

[peach james]

You should be fine- almost all of the modern generation (>2000) locos and stock are going to run fine on code 83, or code 75 rail.

I've been modeling the UK since the mid 80's living in the great white north,

 

James

[brossard]

It's not a matter of stock being able to run on code 83, James is right.  However, code 83 turnouts don't look quite right to my eye.  Peco code 75 is a commonly used standard for UK layouts.

 

Getting Peco track mailed from the UK can be expensive since it will have to come by courier because of weight and parcel size.  Locos, rolling stock and turnouts will come by mail.

 

I use a lot of UK suppliers, my main retailer is Hattons:

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/

 

Check out the North American based suppliers of UK trains here:

 

http://www.brmna.org/index.html

 

When buying, you may want to do a price comparison.  Don't forget that UK prices include 20% VAT which we don't have to pay and should be deducted automatically, although imports may be subject to sales tax and fees at this end.

 

John

 

[The Johnster]

I would say that Peco code 75 bullhead chaired track is the go to.  The stock will run happily on more or less any 00 or H0 track, but the sleeper spacing is different.  By and large real British track has larger gaps between the sleepers, and for you period quite a lot of it was bullhead rail in chairs, very unlike the typical spiked and clipped flat bottom rail used in the US, and increasingly in the UK in post WW2 times.

[DCB]

I would go for code 83.  If you have a layout around 4 feet wide you will need sectional track for the curves and I'm not aware of any code 75 bullhead sectional track. Basically flexi is good for 3ft radius and above (or under 1ft radius to be fair)  but pretty awkward for even curves below about 2ft 6" 

The biggest improvement in appearance I know of for OO track is to reduce the gap between tracks, usually its 2" or 50mm for Peco streamline and 60mm plus for set track but taking it down to 44mm on the straights lets most stock run happily and  looks so much better.  Obviously if you have double track you need wider spacing on curves but if you don't have double track curves you don't need wider spacing..        I have some of the old Grafar flexi with  "OO" spaced sleepers and it looks quite odd.

Looking at the Woodland Scenics Grand Valley layout it looks like it has gradients and post 2010 built UK outline steam is absolutely useless at climbing gradients. 

[TheEngineShed]

1 hour ago, brossard said:

Getting Peco track mailed from the UK can be expensive since it will have to come by courier because of weight and parcel size.  Locos, rolling stock and turnouts will come by mail.

 

On 14 September 2019, I ordered a box of 25 Peco 1 yard  Code 75 Wooden-sleeper nickel silver bullhead rail from Hattons.  Carriage (postage) was 19 pounds UK to USA, after VAT the total on my card was 100.67 pounds.  I consider that extremely reasonable.  Of course costs, and the exchange rate, have gone up since then, but that is still pretty darn competitive with buying Peco track stateside. 

[BR60103]

I would worry about any track made to NMRA/American standards. A lot of the British outline wheels aren't made for it.

 

Most of the layouts I see in our club use code 100 or code 75 Peco. Once the trains are running you don't notice the track. (The rest of them are handlaid EM or P4).

 I would suggest getting in touch with BRMNA  http://www.brmna.org/index.html

 

[brossard]

We are in the process of expanding our club layout.  The big debate is between code 100, which the original layout has and code 75.  In code 75 there is flat bottom and bullhead.  Bull head seems a bit dearer, and Hatton's shows it to be in stock.  Plus bullhead turnouts are very expensive (roughly twice) compared to FB.  For me BH is the preference but availability and price may drive a decision for FB for the club.

 

If it were me, I might go for BH since I accept that the purchase of track is a capital expense and one off.  I can make turnouts.

 

The Facebook link shows videos from our club layout.

 

John

Edited September 14, 2021 by brossard

[Theakerr]

I would stick with the code 83.  Once painted it will look pretty good.  As you are just starting I would avoid the new Peco Code 75 bullhead, it does look very nice but it is rather delicate.  I use Code 100 but only because when I started that was about all that was available here in the GWN.  However, I have upgraded the wheels of all my rolling stock and as a result have had to use code 75 slips and double slips because the improved wheels would come off in the Code 100 slips

[PMP]

With contemporary and recent stock, last fifteen years or so Code83 is unlikely to give you any problems. I use Kato Unitrack for locomotive testing, and have had no problems with any locos or stock.

[brossard]

As I follow this thread, I see a fair few people recommending code 83 which bothers me.  The thing is that code 83 is to North American practice and track uses spikes, not chairs.  If we take the view that track is a model in itself then code 83 is quite wrong.

 

I am curious to know if any one has built a UK themed layout using code 83.

 

I've been to quite a lot of shows over the years.  Most of the US/Cdn themed layouts I have seen used Atlas code 100 and Peco code 100 turnouts.  I have seen just one layout that uses code 83 from Micro Engineering and that was superb.

 

John

[PMP]

1 hour ago, brossard said:

As I follow this thread, I see a fair few people recommending code 83 which bothers me.  The thing is that code 83 is to North American practice and track uses spikes, not chairs.  If we take the view that track is a model in itself then code 83 is quite wrong.

 

I am curious to know if any one has built a UK themed layout using code 83.

 

 

The OP asked if CD83 would be a problem with ‘contemporary’ UK RTR, and it shouldn’t be.
As far as the track as a ‘model’ goes it’s a valid point however, if looking at CD75 RTL track goes then Peco CD75/100 streamline is just as ‘wrong’. I did know of people in the UK whom have used CD83 for a UK outline model both in fiddleyard and ‘front of house’ to get a better flow with ‘number’ based point geometry. 
If you want the best CD75 track RTL then you have plain bullhead available from Peco/DCC Concepts/C&L and (currently) only large radius points from Peco. That range is being developed over the next few years. Unless you want to hand build kits, that’s the only UK OO realistic track game in town, and currently a very restricted choice.

I’m building an HO layout using CD83 and CD70 ME track, and am considering using Peco CD83 on a UK outline layout to use the ‘number’ geometry off stage. Some may be used ‘on stage’ too. I can visually blend it, so it doesn’t bother  me mixing it up.

Edited September 15, 2021 by PMP
Addition

[brossard]

 

3 minutes ago, PMP said:

The OP asked if CD83 would be a problem with ‘contemporary’ UK RTR, and it shouldn’t be.
As far as the track as a ‘model’ goes it’s a valid point however, if looking at CD75 RTL track goes then Peco CD75/100 streamline is just as ‘wrong’. I did know of people in the UK whom have used CD83 for a UK outline model both in fiddleyard and ‘front of house’ to get a better flow with ‘number’ based point geometry. 
If you want the best CD75 track RTL then you have plain bullhead available from Peco/DCC Concepts/C&L and (currently) only large radius points from Peco. That range is being developed over the next few years.

I’m currently building an HO layout using CD83 and CD70 ME track, and am considering using Peco CD83 on a UK outline layout to use the ‘number’ geometry off stage. Some may be used ‘on stage’ too.

 

I know Peco code 75 FB is wrong and there have have been numerous threads about it, mostly on sleeper spacing IIRC.  The track at least does look British even if it is 1/87 scale.  It has been the only game in town forever, it seems.  I have used code 75 BH on C&L track bases on our branchline section of the club layout and that is really good.  Turnouts are handmade.  Most people I believe don't treat track as a model but take a lot of trouble with their rolling stock.

 

I struggled with all the terrible compromises of 00 for 30 years or so (narrow gauge and dreadful couplings, etc).  I went 0 gauge about 6 years ago and now I am a happy camper.  Best modelling decision I ever made.

 

John

[PMP]

1 minute ago, brossard said:

 

I struggled with all the terrible compromises of 00 for 30 years or so (narrow gauge and dreadful couplings, etc).  I went 0 gauge about 6 years ago and now I am a happy camper.  Best modelling decision I ever made.

 

John

You’re absolutely right, there have been (and will be), innumerable frothnami’s on sleeper spacing, yadda yadda in OO. I often find the most vociferous (at either end of the argument) never show their working either.
 

I’ve never had issues with OO, or couplings, I deliberately disguise the gauge and use 3-links or Dinghams. I’ve built in both P4 and EM, but well laid Peco CD75 has done me fine over the past 25 years or so for 4mm scale.

[brossard]

Hmm, I think we are converging on agreement.  Yes, well laid code 75 FB looks and works fine.  My coupling choice for 00 was Kadee.  I did dabble in EM for a time but never had success converting steam locos so gave up on it.

 

Now I'm doing 0 gauge I can use 3 link et al and that makes me happy.  Fine Scale 0 track gauge scales to 4'6" so equivalent to 4mm EM.  Wouldn't it be great if 4mm defaulted to EM?

 

John

[DCB]

You might like to re wheel the UK stock with NMRA profile wheels if you want to achieve US style smooth reliable running and avoid a whole lot of hassle.  Semi modern UK stock doesn't seem to be to any particular standard, my last acquisition a Dapol Mogul needed to have its leading truck wheels reprofiled in a drill chuck to give some coning to stop the useless lump derailing,   I have are a rake of Airfix Mk2's with some NMRA wheels I bought from a swap meet which run beautifully and would re wheel all my stock if I could find a suitable source to suit my admittedly limited fiscal resources.   

[JZ]

Have you tried Walthers for Peco track?  They currently have both code 75 and 100 in stock, as well as 83.

[jpendle]

5 hours ago, JZ said:

Have you tried Walthers for Peco track?  They currently have both code 75 and 100 in stock, as well as 83.

I model N Gauge, so shipping costs may make a difference, but in my experience there is almost nothing British Outline that I can buy over here that I can't get cheaper from UK suppliers.

 

 

Regards,

 

John P

 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2021 by jpendle
Typo

[brossard]

22 minutes ago, jpendle said:

I model N Gauge, so shipping costs may make a difference, but in my experience there is almost nothing British Outline that I can buy over here that I can't get cheaper from UK suppliers.

 

 

Regards,

 

John P

 

 

 

 

Now that makes sense and is entirely in line with my own experience.  For me, Hatton's is the best choice for general railway products.

 

As long as you are buying things in regular sized parcels and less than 1kg, it will come in the mail.  For irregular parcels (like boxes of track)  and over 1kg, courier may be the shipping method and is more expensive.  The good news is that such things are bought only rarely.

 

John

Edited September 16, 2021 by brossard