Port of London Authority (PLA) Brake Van Liveries

[coline33]

On 09/10/2021 at 11:17, justin said:

The book PLA Railways published in 1952 doesn't unfortunately mention livery but gives the internal wagon fleet totals as:

310 open wagons

38 box vans,

120 flat wagons (it doesn't specify if these are four wheel or bogie)

77 insulated vans

2 glass wagons

1 weed killer wagon

1 break down van

3 brake vans. The book states that the brake vans were kept for use on the high level line at the Royal Victoria Dock

I corresponded in the 1970s with the author just before he passed way.   These were what he found just before final drafting.   He kindly presented me with a signed copy which went into the PLA Library - whether it is still there and whether the PLA Library still exists in the present set-up or is with the Museum of London, I do not know.   My known rolling stock numbers shows open wagons from 126 to 995 with two oddities at 1283 and 1390; brake vans 1001-1005; breakdown vans 1007 and 1166; insulated vans from 1144 to 1544 and ordinary vans from 2043 to 2576.   Now those 120 flat wagons were four wheelers for timber carriage and storage in I&M and the highest know number was 3124.   They were ex-Millwall DC and low floored hence the I&M locos could be found with two separate height buffers!   Hope that helps.

[coline33]

Now to add some more data to my previous post.   I am not aware of any PLA rolling stock being bogie or 6 wheel.   Open wagons 127-9 were described as Tube wagons while 1283 was delivered from Hurst Nelson in 1914 being a 3-plank dropside open in white for the engineering Dept.   Please ignore references to 1390 and 3124.   Those numbered in the 3000s were flat wagons.   3038 was a standard height flat but 3147. 3217/8 and 3392 were low height.

 

With the final number series in diesel days came prefixed number.   'A' was for covered vans -  45/52/79 ex-BR Palvans; 'B' was for brake vans; 'C' for open wagons - 55 was ex-LSWR and 127 ex-GWR O18 and 'D' was departmental i.e included breakdown vans such as 07.

 

If anyone has more info to add please do so.

[coline33]

Oh dear, I missed out A64 ex-LSWR, A66 ex-GWR V18 and A73 ex-GWR V16.   C55 was ex-LNWR not LSWR!   Sorry.

[coline33]

I have submitted Rapido's Product Suggestion form in respect of open wagon 619/C127.   Interesting to see how they respond.   Next is to see if Bachmann are interested to do A64 an ex-LSWR covered van based on their existing LSWR/SR/BR model.

[coline33]

Although not 100% correct, EFE Rail 87052 would be a good start to alter and repaint this LSWR covered van as PLA A64.   Kernow MRC have plenty in stock.   Beware this 87052 is the best tooling for the PLA van.   EFE have produced new tooling for this series but it would be more work to alter!!!

[Compound2632]

Tall body, narrow planking - closer to the Cambrian kit?

[coline33]

41 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Tall body, narrow planking - closer to the Cambrian kit?

Yes, but I will be going after EFE to see if a RTR of it can be add to their range from the original tooling.   I have this afternoon sent a suggestion to Bachmann for a RTR PLA Austerity to be added to the range for a steamer to go with the Janus diesel for Royals and Tilbury Docks.

[coline33]

15 hours ago, coline33 said:

Yes, but I will be going after EFE to see if a RTR of it can be add to their range from the original tooling.   I have this afternoon sent a suggestion to Bachmann for a RTR PLA Austerity to be added to the range for a steamer to go with the Janus diesel for Royals and Tilbury Docks.

I had a reply from Bachmann accepting the PLA Austerity suggestion to go forward in their next product review,   I was going to reply with the suggestion of PLA A64 from the original LSWR van tooling.   However, the original tooling is for the lower height van and the new tooling is for the higher one.   Alas the higher one has  vent shields on its ends - oh, you can't win!!!   But I will submit and ask if the shield is an add-on so easily removed.

[mclong]

PLA A64 is an ex Caledonian van, but very similar to LSWR vans. The sliding door is narrower and door fittings are different.

[Dave John]

Agreed , it is a Caledonian D 67 van. 

 

51 L do a wm kit. I have a couple, straightforward build.

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/wagons/crd067/

[coline33]

17 minutes ago, mclong said:

PLA A64 is an ex Caledonian van, but very similar to LSWR vans. The sliding door is narrower and door fittings are different.

PLA records stated A64 to be ex-LSWR.   It is a high version without shielded end vents.   The LSWR photo looks as though it is a low version.

[coline33]

16 minutes ago, Dave John said:

Agreed , it is a Caledonian D 67 van. 

 

51 L do a wm kit. I have a couple, straightforward build.

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/wagons/crd067/

Although the axleboxes appear to be the same, the brake is very different.   Do we have the CR van photographed in LMS or BR condition, please?

[mclong]

If PLA records show A64 as ex LSWR then the record is wrong, it is definetly ex Caledonian.  The axleboxes and brake gear are Caledonian, every bit of iron work is different  to LSWR vans. The door is the main difference, narrower on Caley vans the door catch and handle are very distinctive. The tall LSWR vans all had vents on the ends. The EFE vans have steel underframes, A64 has a wooden underframe.  Here is a tall LSWR van in BR days

[Compound2632]

I thought it didn't look quite right. PLA A64 has LMS-pattern oil axleboxes, as does the restored 2080 in the photo above.

[Dave John]

The CR and the PLA vans have wooden underframes. 

 

The brake gear of 2080 shown above has been modified since it is a later vac fitted version. 

 

There is one at the srps, with morton cam rather than the original either side brakes. 

 

http://www.srpsmuseum.org.uk/10048.htm

 

http://www.srpsmuseum.org.uk/10047.htm

 

 

 

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On 10/10/2021 at 12:22, Artless Bodger said:

The crates in mineral wagons look interesting, stencilled Vauxhall Cars - too small for a whole car, so parts perhaps? How are the crates secured in the wagons, no sign of any ropes so some sort of dunnage packing? Not delicate obviously or they would be in shock wagons. No details on the Flikr page.

These were Vauxhall and Bedford vehicles crated for export in component form for assembly, originating from the Luton factory.  These were carried on the branchline from Luton that joined the ECML at Welwyn Garden City, and usually shipped from Tilbury. This made an impressive train on the branch, loading up to 40 wagons, limited to that length by the passing loops.

[coline33]

48 minutes ago, Dave John said:

The CR and the PLA vans have wooden underframes. 

 

The brake gear of 2080 shown above has been modified since it is a later vac fitted version. 

 

There is one at the srps, with morton cam rather than the original either side brakes. 

 

http://www.srpsmuseum.org.uk/10048.htm

 

http://www.srpsmuseum.org.uk/10047.htm

 

 

 

 

Thank you both vdery much for the observations.   Then definitely those axleboxes point to its CR origins.   The planking, etc. of the sides of 2080 reflect those of A64.   I can only assume that somewhere in its history A64 had its ends completely rebuilt.   From its condition in the PLA photo I can only think that A64 was a renumber from the PLA's original van numbering series.   It looks too old for the PLA to have bought it after WW2 or maybe it had no choice!!!   So I have changed the "ex-LSWR" to "ex-CR/LMS" in my listing.   Was the diagram D67 that of CR and did the LMS change it, please?   I do not suppose the D67 has sufficient appeal for a RTR product suggestion in CR/LMS/BR/PLA liveries - unless someone can prove otherwise?

 

On the subject of covered vans, I would love to know just how many ex-BR Palvans, beyond the three that the Bluebell purchased, there were?   I have a note that there was a grounded PLA Palvan body alongside the Queen Elizabeth reservoir at West Molesey but cannot find anything further about it.   I am looking to make a case for a product suggestion for a RTR Palvan in BR and PLA formats.

 

What I am looking for is a prototype PLA wagon that is a 'dead-ringer' for any 4mm RTR model open wagon produced - has anyone any ideas, please?

[Dave John]

The Caledonian treated the digram number as an operational designation, so a variety of different build types could be allocated to the same diagram, 1316 in total to D 67.   Build dates vary between 1903 and 1918. 

 

I think A64 as photographed above is from order G 280, built 1909, Morton brakes both sides. 

 

A lot more info in "Caledonian Railway Wagons" by Mike Williams.

 

 

[coline33]

14 hours ago, Dave John said:

The Caledonian treated the digram number as an operational designation, so a variety of different build types could be allocated to the same diagram, 1316 in total to D 67.   Build dates vary between 1903 and 1918. 

 

I think A64 as photographed above is from order G 280, built 1909, Morton brakes both sides. 

 

A lot more info in "Caledonian Railway Wagons" by Mike Williams.

 

 

Many thanks for this.   Looking at the timber conditions of A64, the side looks original but the end seems relatively new.   This leads me to suspect that Harland & Wolff at Royal Docks have done a rebuild of the ends at some time which has warranted the van to survive into the final PLA numbering series.

[coline33]

Illustrated comparisons between the PLA's Millwall Circle and my first design!!!   When my dining room table is fully extended then I can insert that extra siding section on the other side of the circle to serve the ship berths.   I had wanted to put the storage sidings fan in the middle of the circle but it would have been at the expense of having Millwall shed where a spare road awaits delivery of PLA56 to be alongside PLA74, 200 and 201.

[coline33]

Accurascale will be releasing a model of a 'Buckjumper' J68 in BR livery as 68646 and is available to preorder.   PLA did hire-in Stratford engines in the 1950s.   One of these, 68654, was photographed in Royal Docks with its PLA crew.

[SDuhig]

Well I guess that serves me right for not logging on here for err.. years.

Yes, very much still interested in PLA.

I know of Dapol and Rapido releases and have worked on some basic, probably inaccurate steel framed, 5 plank merchandise Airfix wagons wagons,

two Austerity saddle tanks plus a pair of PAL vans. 

 

Thank you so much for the information above.

Steven Duhig

steven_duhig@yahoo.com

[SDuhig]

1. Noticed from my books that the Dapol loco rear seems to be different? Should it have a more open back above the buffer beam?
2. I have a second Peckett W4 but, as I believe PLA had only one, any suggestions for a conversion for PLA?
3. Would love to get hold of the Hardy resin body, not least because I have the lining transfers for same!
4. Rails of Sheffield have a Rapido six wheel single veranda brake van similar to one on PLA with L B L on the side??
5. Probably going to convert an ancient K's Kit of an LNER Toad B too.
6. Charlie Connor does of course produce the ancient PLA 2-4-0T 3D printed kit too. https://www.shapeways.com/product/XCQBT4X6D/pla-millwall-extension-railway-2-4-0t-kit
7. PLA transfers are still just available, just, in the old time workshop range but I found some similar (Gothic sans serif white 5/32” letters and numbers Gothic sans serif white 5/32” letters and numbers?) , more flexible and cheaper here in USA in the CHAMP DECALS range: Champ Decal Sel #L-39 Modern Gothic Letter & Number Set 5/32” White NOS.

 

*No vans yet so very interested in the above information!

 

[SDuhig]

Captioned PLA Brake van but has LBL or LPL on the sides?

Bauxite or grey? I think bauxite?

Red ends? I think not.

Not found out what LBL stands for?

Similar SECR 6 wheel single veranda 

brake van made by Rapido exclusively for Rails of Sheffield.

2/4/24 update. I just got one..

Steven.

Edited yesterday at 02:15 by SDuhig
Updated

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, SDuhig said:

Similar SECR 6 wheel single veranda 

brake van made by Rapido exclusively for Rails of Sheffield.

 

Most probably a second-hand Midland 15 or 20 ton brake van. Were not all the SER single-veranda vans rebuilt with a second veranda? (But as the basis for a repaint into PLA livery, the Rapido model would be close enough, depending on how fastidious you are.)

 

Any idea of the date of the photograph?

Edited January 21 by Compound2632