Alstom Hydrogen Multiple Units

[black and decker boy]

Posted elsewhere is this press release from Alstom

 

Alstom & Eversholt Hydrogen MUs

 

Alstom, Britain’s leading train manufacturer and maintenance provider, and Eversholt Rail, leading British train owner and financier, have today announced a Memorandum of Understanding aimed at delivering the UK’s first ever brand-new hydrogen train fleet. 

The two companies have agreed to work together, sharing technical and commercial information necessary for Alstom to design, build, commission and support a fleet of ten three-car hydrogen multiple units (HMUs). These will be built by Alstom in Britain. The new HMU fleet will be based on the latest evolution of the Alstom Aventra platform and the intention is that final contracts for the fleet will be signed in early 2022.

Edited November 10, 2021 by black and decker boy
Typo on Title

[nightstar.train]

Any hint on who for or where they might operate? Of course that will depend on the range and where they are getting hydrogen from. It can be got as a byproduct of some industries, or by spliting water with electricity (in which case renewable energy should be favoured). Very exciting development, but a lot of hurdles to overcome to introduce a full fleet of 10. 

[08221]

I’ve read in a couple of places that they could possibly be destined for East - West rail when it opens.

[PenrithBeacon]

All aboard world's first hydrogen-powered train 

https://news.sky.com/video/share-12465585

[Mike_Walker]

Scotland appears to be the most likely place to host them, the Far North or West Highland lines are being suggested.

 

Not the first, I think Alstom have had hydrogen fuelled units on trial in Germany for a year or so. Presumably they will draw on the experience gained for the Aventra based units.

[Andy Kirkham]

3 hours ago, nightstar.train said:

Any hint on who for or where they might operate? 

 

Judging by the title of this thread, it will be the South Tynedale Railway 

<Edit>  The above comment will now be rather engmatic, but the title  originally said Alston rather than Alstom

Edited November 11, 2021 by Andy Kirkham

[Dungrange]

32 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

Scotland appears to be the most likely place to host them, the Far North or West Highland lines are being suggested.

 

Correct.  They will most likely end up on relatively long rural lines which have a relatively low service frequency, as that means that overhead electrification is unlikely to be a viable solution (due to the high capital cost of overhead electrification schemes).  Shorter lines are more likely to be suitable for Battery Electric Multiple Units (BEMUs), but with BEMUs needing a recharge every 50 miles or so, they are not really suitable for the Far North lines hence the reason why HMUs seem to be most likely on that line.

 

33 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

Not the first, I think Alstom have had hydrogen fuelled units on trial in Germany for a year or so. Presumably they will draw on the experience gained for the Aventra based units.

 

Correct, Alstom have been running their Concordia iLint units in several European countries including Germany, France, Sweden, Poland, Austria and the Netherlands, on either demonstration runs or in service.

[Michael Hodgson]

They may be British but the refueling system comes from Germany ...

 

 

[ess1uk]

Where is the gas coming from?

[Zomboid]

Anywhere really, Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe.

 

Though I doubt we'll be harvesting it from Alpha Centauri.

[Dungrange]

52 minutes ago, ess1uk said:

Where is the gas coming from?

 It will most likely have to produced locally to wherever hydrogen trains are running.  The problem is that the boiling point of hydrogen (ie when it turns from a liquid to a gas) at atmospheric pressure is minus 252 Celsius.  Therefore you either need to keep hydrogen very cold (so that it is in liquid form) or you need to have it under high pressure so that it takes up a lesser volume.  I think the majority of hydrogen fuel cells are currently using pressures of around 350 bar (ie 350 times atmospheric pressure), but that increasing that to 700 bar should be feasible.  The problem is that it's going to be difficult to transport large volumes of hydrogen significant distances, so it's more likely that it will be produced on site using electrolysis, so that the high pressure infrastructure for storage and fuelling is relatively local.

[JeffP]

Alsthom?

So we might get some units that don't have flat fronts, and/or coach connections so that they look like a runaway carriage?

[Andy Kirkham]

14 minutes ago, JeffP said:

Alsthom?

 

They used to be called Alsthom (a contraction of Alsace and Thomson) but they changed it to Alstom because some people were unsure how to pronounce it.

[JeremyC]

RailEngineer has a few interesting articles about hydrogen powered trains.

https://www.railengineer.co.uk/hydrogen-trains-coming-soon/

https://www.railengineer.co.uk/scotlands-hydrogen-train/

[Mike_Walker]

28 minutes ago, Andy Kirkham said:

 

They used to be called Alsthom (a contraction of Alsace and Thomson) but they changed it to Alstom because some people were unsure how to pronounce it.

Around the time the 175s and 180s were being delivered, some of us decided Alstom stood for "Always Slow To Overcome Malfunctions"...

[frobisher]

1 hour ago, Dungrange said:

The problem is that it's going to be difficult to transport large volumes of hydrogen significant distances, so it's more likely that it will be produced on site using electrolysis, so that the high pressure infrastructure for storage and fuelling is relatively local.

 

Shouldn't be a huge issue in Caithness given the density of wind farms there, especially near to Georgemas Junction.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, frobisher said:

 

Shouldn't be a huge issue in Caithness given the density of wind farms there, especially near to Georgemas Junction.

Up there they thought North Sea Oil would last long enough ... if they electroyse the North Sea won't that prevent the sea level rise they're all so worried about ?

[Zomboid]

Unlikely since the exhaust from a fuel cell is water.

[Phatbob]

Hydrogen fueld units for the far north of Scotland huh?  McHindenburgs?

The problem with using the Adventra as the basis will no doubt be that'll it take longer to fix the software than build the trains?

[Dungrange]

44 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Up there they thought North Sea Oil would last long enough ... if they electroyse the North Sea won't that prevent the sea level rise they're all so worried about ?

 

No.  The electrolysis process converts water into Hydrogen and Oxygen.  That gives us the Hydrogen 'fuel' used to power these trains.  However, the trains combine that Hydrogen 'fuel' with Oxygen in the atmosphere to create water again.  We will therefore end up with exactly the same amount of water in the North Sea irrespective of how the Hydrogen is formed.  Rising sea levels are a consequence of melting glaciers in places such as Greenland, which is due to rising global temperatures, which come from increasing quantities of Greenhouse Gases in the atmosphere, a lot of which are produced from burning oil.

[cal.n]

17 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

Posted elsewhere is this press release from Alstom

 

Alstom & Eversholt Hydrogen MUs

 

Alstom, Britain’s leading train manufacturer and maintenance provider, and Eversholt Rail, leading British train owner and financier, have today announced a Memorandum of Understanding aimed at delivering the UK’s first ever brand-new hydrogen train fleet. 

The two companies have agreed to work together, sharing technical and commercial information necessary for Alstom to design, build, commission and support a fleet of ten three-car hydrogen multiple units (HMUs). These will be built by Alstom in Britain. The new HMU fleet will be based on the latest evolution of the Alstom Aventra platform and the intention is that final contracts for the fleet will be signed in early 2022.

 

They're understandably being very quiet with technical details. But there are some pretty major questions with a 3-car unit of this size.

 

How powerful a fuel cell(s) is to be fitted? Where are they storing the H2? If the tanks are going to be in the roof, there will either be a continuous 'pan recess' or it'll have no range. 

[Reorte]

10 minutes ago, Dungrange said:

 

No.  The electrolysis process converts water into Hydrogen and Oxygen.  That gives us the Hydrogen 'fuel' used to power these trains.  However, the trains combine that Hydrogen 'fuel' with Oxygen in the atmosphere to create water again.  We will therefore end up with exactly the same amount of water in the North Sea irrespective of how the Hydrogen is formed.  Rising sea levels are a consequence of melting glaciers in places such as Greenland, which is due to rising global temperatures, which come from increasing quantities of Greenhouse Gases in the atmosphere, a lot of which are produced from burning oil.

Water vapour, which is what is directly created, is a much more potent greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide.

 

It just happens to recycle itself out of the atmosphere easily enough. Usually at weekends.

[Dungrange]

8 minutes ago, cal.n said:

How powerful a fuel cell(s) is to be fitted? Where are they storing the H2? If the tanks are going to be in the roof, there will either be a continuous 'pan recess' or it'll have no range. 

 

16 hours ago, nightstar.train said:

Any hint on who for or where they might operate? Of course that will depend on the range and where they are getting hydrogen from.

 

 

The article @JeremyC linked to above states:

 

"The Breeze is a three-car unit that is a conversion of a redundant Class 321 EMU. It has two driving trailer coaches, which each have roof mounted fuel cells and interior hydrogen fuel tanks taking up a third of the coach space. The central motor coach has the traction motors and batteries. The unit will have between 148 and 168 standard class seats which is more than the two-car Class 15x DMUs that they will replace.

 

Alstom’s Breeze has hydrogen stored inside the train behind the driver’s cab.

 

These trains will be designated Class 600 HMUs and so, as far as numbering is concerned, they will be the first of the 6xx category of units, a new classification for alternatively powered traction.  Following discussions with various potential customers for the Class 600 HMU, it is likely that the first deployment will be in the Tees Valley, where Northern Trains have selected the Class 600 HMU as its preferred solution for the operation of zero-emissions rolling stock. This would initially be a fleet of ten trains operating services to Bishop Auckland, Hartlepool, Saltburn and Whitby.  Their deployment will be supported by the UK’s first hydrogen transport hub in Teeside. As part of this, it is proposed to build a hydrogen train maintenance facility on the former Lackenby Steelworks site. This will consist of a three-road maintenance shed, stabling for 16 units, train wash and CET facilities along with a hydrogen production and refuelling plant."

 

[The Stationmaster]

16 minutes ago, cal.n said:

 

They're understandably being very quiet with technical details. But there are some pretty major questions with a 3-car unit of this size.

 

How powerful a fuel cell(s) is to be fitted? Where are they storing the H2? If the tanks are going to be in the roof, there will either be a continuous 'pan recess' or it'll have no range. 

Will they even bother with fuel cells?  All you need is a converted internal combustion engine, preferably supercharged but depending pn the way the system is arranged you can can nitrogen oxide in the emissions.   F dont forget taht some folk have been running cars fuelled by hydrogen for years so it's hardly new technology to run an i.c. engine on hydrogen.

[Dungrange]

1 hour ago, Reorte said:

Water vapour, which is what is directly created, is a much more potent greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide.

 

It just happens to recycle itself out of the atmosphere easily enough. Usually at weekends.

 

I think that's the point: water evaporates and falls as rain pretty regularly.  However, of the CO2 emitted into the atmosphere, 40 percent still remains after 100 years, 20 percent after 1,000 years, and 10 percent as long as 10,000 years later.  Yes, water vapour is the most abundant Greenhouse Gas, but is converted to rain pretty quickly.