Hornby Points - Where is the sticking Point?

[latestarter]

Now that my DCC track (all Hornby set track) is fully laid down, bus wired, painted and ready for ballasting next week, I'm becoming more than a little frustrated with Hornby points. No matter what I try, some locos will always stick on some points below a certain speed - often just less than 50% on the Select controller. I've tried filing down the plastic frog and other parts of the point; and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

I just wondered if anyone knew if there is a standard place on the points that typically snags smaller locos, such as my terrier, in the photo? I'm still not fully 'track literate', so would appreciate you spelling out exactly what to do and where to do it.

Thanks for any help.

[Butler Henderson]

The curved points suffer from slight gauge narrowing althrough that might not be the issue - have you checked the loco is picking up cutrrent on all wheels it is meant to trhoughout their sideways movement - not unusual for a pick up contact strip to need adjusting for some odd reason. Also check the frog of the point is level with the approach rails - if the frog is raised slightly you could given its length have two wheels on the dead section and the other on that side lifted slightly off the rail.

[ITG]

Although no direct experience with Hornby points, I did start with Peco insulfrog points, like Hornby they are insulated frogs. The fact is there is a piece of plastic in the middle of what needs to be a conductor of electricity. I found that if everything wasn’t pretty much spot-on, I had similar problems to what you’re experiencing.

By everything, I include (but not exhaustively so)

1. is the point sitting dead flat?

2. are the loco wheels clean?

3. are the loco wheels aligned correctly? Ie are the back to back measurements correct? Are the chassis, axles, wheels sitting ‘flat’? Are the pick-ups making good contact? Can you add extra pick-ups?

 

The last one, for an odd loco or two, I never did sort, but ended up selling troublesome locos, whereas more skilled loco technicians may have persevered. Heavier locos performed better. Can you add weight?

What is worth doing is closely scrutinising exactly where the wheels are on the point when you get failure. Is it the same spot on different points? By a process of elimination, you can at least identify the exact cause, and then stand a chance of fixing it.

I have to say that, although such problems still can affect live frog points, I have found they reduced by 90% when I switched to live frogs, with switched power to frogs. I wholly accept others will have different experiences.

 

The final suggestion I can make is to try using ‘stay alive capacitors’ in your locos. They store power, so that if track contact is interrupted briefly, the power is maintained, Never fitted one myself, but I bought a pre-fitted used Class 08 0-6-0 shunter which every time crawls across every point, including some insulfrogs I still have. And ‘crawls’ is slow, very slow.

Edited December 4, 2021 by ITG

[andyman7]

The length of the 'dead' area on the curved points, coupled with the joints and changes from metal rail to plastic to joined point blades mean that any loco with a short or rigid wheelbase will always be prone to challenge in when running across them. The one other element that helps but doe not come as standard on most RTR is 'compensation' - or suspension, this keeps wheels in contact with the rail through any slight irregularity.

[latestarter]

30 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

have you checked the loco is picking up cutrrent on all wheels it is meant to trhoughout their sideways movement - not unusual for a pick up contact strip to need adjusting for some odd reason.

Thanks for that. Forgive my ignorance, but is there a simple way to check if the loco is picking up current on all wheels?

[latestarter]

33 minutes ago, ITG said:

1. is the point sitting dead flat?

2. are the loco wheels clean?

3. are the loco wheels aligned correctly? Ie are the back to back measurements correct? Are the chassis, axles, wheels sitting ‘flat’? Are the pick-ups making good contact? Can you add extra pick-ups?

 

What is worth doing is closely scrutinising exactly where the wheels are on the point when you get failure. Is it the same spot on different points? By a process of elimination, you can at least identify the exact cause, and then stand a chance of fixing it.

 

The final suggestion I can make is to try using ‘stay alive capacitors’ in your locos. They store power, so that if track contact is interrupted briefly, the power is maintained, Never fitted one myself, but I bought a pre-fitted used Class 08 0-6-0 shunter which every time crawls across every point, including some insulfrogs I still have. And ‘crawls’ is slow, very slow.

1. Yes, I have definitely nailed down the points as flat as possible and my over-use of track pins in becoming legendary.
2. No fluff, but I'll get some IPA and clean them next week. My thoughts on the Terrier is that is was running well straight out of the box, but is sticking in various places since I have been busy with wiring and a bit of drilling.
3. This needs a back-to-back gauge I think, and I'll put one on Santa's list.

As for where the loco fails, it's the same spot on the same point (over plastic) but I'm not sure about the same spot on different points. I'll double-check.

I have only recently heard about 'stay alives'. Where I get them and how I fit them is on my 'to-do' list.

Thanks again for the detailed response.

[kevinlms]

2 hours ago, latestarter said:

Thanks for that. Forgive my ignorance, but is there a simple way to check if the loco is picking up current on all wheels?

Yes, it's called a multimeter and a cheap one is all you require for model railways.

 

You set it for ohms (Ω symbol) and check for continuity for the wheels on one side of the loco. It's easier to do than describe.

[latestarter]

1 hour ago, kevinlms said:

Yes, it's called a multimeter and a cheap one is all you require for model railways.

 

You set it for ohms (Ω symbol) and check for continuity for the wheels on one side of the loco. It's easier to do than describe.

Thanks Kevin. Believe it or not, I bought one some weeks ago, to check a faulty Hornby point! I managed to do that, but had no idea about it's other potential uses with a layout. I'll give it go.

[cypherman]

The easiest way to check that your wheels are picking up is to turn it upside and apply power systematically to them.

[DCB]

I just don't understand why anyone would go to all that trouble with droppers and not live frog the Hornby points.  A nickel silver Arrow head soldered in place of the plastic frog works wonders, far more beneficial than a forest of droppers. Even 1960s Super 4 benefits from it.   A loco usually runs on three wheels and when the wrong one is on the plastic blob it stops..  I have a loco with one axle pick up for testing and if it stops anywhere I sort the problem except on diamonds which are beyond me.    In addition there is mechanical resistance from the very tight radius through the Hornby point, 1st radius in places on some points.  The rails are tight to gauge in places and wide in others, really a second rate product compared to Peco set track as a model but the contacts are far more robust, cleanable and suitable for occasional use on the dining table.   I would convert it to live frog with separate frog switching, I converted several of mine a while ago 

The Terrier is a bit light. Stick something heavy on top of it, not that heavy, ounces not tons and see if it improves pick up. My heavy locos plough on through snow (yes) and dirt where lighter ones with multiple pickups stop dead,  If it wasn't DCC a Relco might help

[latestarter]

6 hours ago, DCB said:

I just don't understand why anyone would go to all that trouble with droppers and not live frog the Hornby points.

The answer is simple. How can you do something if you don't know you're supposed to do it? This is my first layout and I've never heard of Live frogs. I spent 20 years teaching at universities and managed not to assume others knew as much about my subject as me. Your post is helpful in hindsight, but this is your subject and I know much less about it. So how could I know about live frogs?

[Harlequin]

3 hours ago, latestarter said:

The answer is simple. How can you do something if you don't know you're supposed to do it? This is my first layout and I've never heard of Live frogs. I spent 20 years teaching at universities and managed not to assume others knew as much about my subject as me. Your post is helpful in hindsight, but this is your subject and I know much less about it. So how could I know about live frogs?

 

Research before getting started?

 

Virtually the first thing you told us was that you'd already bought thousands of pounds worth of Hornby track.

 

If you'd read around or asked here first you could have saved yourself a lot of hassle!

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Harlequin

[latestarter]

16 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

Research before getting started?

 

Virtually the first thing you told us was that you'd already bought thousands of pounds worth of Hornby track.

 

If you'd read around or asked here first you could have saved yourself a lot of hassle!

 

I actually said hundreds of euros worth of track. I spent months researching how to lay it. But the difference between insulated and electrified points was not something that came up in my research. It's impossible to ask a question if you don't know why you need to ask it. I changed my layout on advice here, and there are 18 points in it. I don't remember you suggesting that might be a problem.

Edited December 5, 2021 by latestarter

[Lee-H]

On my previous layout I had more trouble on Hornby’s curved points than anywhere else. On my current layout I have eliminated them to save myself the frustration.

[Butler Henderson]

I'm not certain advising someone to change the frog is that great as it's going to need quite some good track laying skills. The important thing is to ensure the whole point is level, even if properly pinned down dead frog points can have a habit of raising on the frog. As for the dead frog maybe exchanging them for the new 
SL-U76 & SL-U77 points from Peco may be the answer when they become available. As to the pick up contact issue many locos can be checked by eye looking at the pick up and it's contact, or lack of, as the axle  moves side to side.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Butler Henderson
Typo

[Harlequin]

11 minutes ago, latestarter said:

I actually said hundreds of euros worth of track. I spent months researching how to lay it. But the difference between insulated and electrified points was not something that came up in my research. It's impossible to ask a question if you don't know why you need to ask it. I changed my layout on advice here, and there are 18 points in it. I don't remember you suggesting that might be a problem.

 

I decided that your general attitude and the fact that you'd already bought the track and committed to a certain direction meant there was no point commenting any further.

 

FWIW: Here's what you said:

I misremembered that the track was only a part of the £1600 outlay.

 

[ITG]

I’ve been happy to help on this thread, and my years of railway modelling are not many, yet I did feel I didn’t want to start challenging your decision-making on types of points or track, when you’d already bought a not insignificant quantity. I too started with (Peco) insulfrog points and quickly switched to live frog. Result - I’ve still got a couple of dead frogs on the layout which now give me no problem, but I’ve also got 4 or 5 dead frog points in a box unused! 30 odd live frogs on the layout though.

 

it’s worth persevering on all the suggested potential solutions for stalling on points at least for a while. But you may find at some point (no pun intended) you decide to stop, pull everything up, change a few things, and start again.  You won’t be alone in doing that - it’s all part of learning.
You’ll quickly find this is a hobby of never ending learning, often by making mistakes. If you’re lucky, those mistakes won’t be too expensive! Not what you want to hear, but getting things right first time in such a multi-faceted hobby is not easy. That learning and gaining of knowledge is trickier than normal just now, for everyone, due to the lack of exhibitions. And for you, if you are also isolated from model shops to pop into and pick brains, it’s doubly tricky.

 

 

Incidentally, (your reference to)using lots of track pins doesn’t necessarily mean the track is absolutely flat. Sometimes pins that are pushed in further than the next one can actually cause the very distortion you’re trying to avoid.

Edited December 5, 2021 by ITG
Addition

[latestarter]

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

 

I decided that your general attitude and the fact that you'd already bought the track and committed to a certain direction meant there was no point commenting any further.

 

FWIW: Here's what you said:

I misremembered that the track was only a part of the £1600 outlay.

 

Track, locos and accessories. That's NOT jut track - which is how you quoted me. The help I've got here has been invaluable but there's no need for your personal and attacking remarks, just because I'm new and not as informed as you are.

Given that I worked in a job for 40 years where, if I didn't do research, people could DIE, and I've written papers and books on research, I took your remark personally.

[Phil Parker]

Can we return to offering advice please - if this becomes "handbags at dawn", I'll lock the thread.

 

It's easy to miss-read or get the wrong end of the stick online, please can everyone pause before posting angry replies.

[Phil Parker]

19 hours ago, latestarter said:

Yes, I have definitely nailed down the points as flat as possible and my over-use of track pins in becoming legendary.

 

The heads of the pins should only just touch the sleepers. Any firmer and they can distort the plastic sleeper base. I's easier to do this than you might think!

[kevinlms]

4 minutes ago, latestarter said:

Track, locos and accessories. That's NOT jut track - which is how you quoted me. The help I've got here has been invaluable but there's no need for your personal and attacking remarks, just because I'm new and not as informed as you are.

Given that I worked in a job for 40 years where, if I didn't do research, people could DIE, and I've written papers and books on research, I took your remark personally.

You need to remember that there are many different opinions expressed here and they can't all be right.

Most of the advice is given after sometimes decades of experience. Often it's related to 'dead frog' over 'live frog' and this is something where the 'twain will never met'.

 

You will read if you do some research that many beginners have exactly the trouble as you have found, that being that locos frequently stall.

To the average youngster, that may not matter, as they merely increase the speed, so next time the loco jumps the dead spot!

 

You have been given some advice how pick ups may be fixed, additional weight, track laid properly and modifying your points to improve their conductivity.

 

You'd be surprised how many people chuck layouts together (I'm not suggesting that you have - I haven't followed your posts in detail) and wonder why it doesn't work that well.

 

Or instead of building all of your layout in one go, perhaps build a simplified version and see what you think. You might be ok with it, or you might decide to start again.

 

No one can tell you what to do. Well they can, but ultimately it's your decision. But I would suggest you try a few things over the next few weeks and see what works - amount of effort, for the results.

 

Good luck.

[GeraldH]

Setrack curved points can be a bit tricky.  I have two of the latest generation of Hornby Curved Points on my layout and they work well.  Almost nothing stalls or derails on them.  Earlier generations of Hornby curved points were troublesome.  The Bachmann ones are subtly different and mine did cause regular derailments (especially with Mainline locos) so this has now been replaced with the latest Peco Settrack one which is also trouble free.

 

Zooming into your photos does raise a couple of possible issues.  The jumpers that you have added to make the points non-isolating[?] look as though they could potentially interfere with the wheels?  It's hard to tell from the photos, but has some of the paint got onto the inside edge of the rail head or even the tops?  Locos pickup from both at certain times.  I have had stalling issues in the past due to my over enthusiastic painting and ballasting track.  Don't get too downhearted and stick at it, you'll get there in the end :-) .

[latestarter]

6 minutes ago, GeraldH said:

Zooming into your photos does raise a couple of possible issues.  The jumpers that you have added to make the points non-isolating[?] look as though they could potentially interfere with the wheels?  It's hard to tell from the photos, but has some of the paint got onto the inside edge of the rail head or even the tops?  Locos pickup from both at certain times.  I have had stalling issues in the past due to my over enthusiastic painting and ballasting track.  Don't get too downhearted and stick at it, you'll get there in the end :-) .

Thanks for that. I added a 2nd set of point clips to the points in the photos (no others) just to make sure the original ones were not part of the problem. The Terrier was stalling before I put them in, but I'll revert to one set to be on the safe side. I had also considered that the paint be an issue, and I (foolishly) ran the Terrier before it may have dried fully. So, I'll go an see if I can take some off the rails and get something to clean the wheels of the Terrier properly - I'm not certain what would be best. IPA is not easy to get here, but I'll look a bit harder.

[latestarter]

49 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

The heads of the pins should only just touch the sleepers. Any firmer and they can distort the plastic sleeper base. I's easier to do this than you might think!

Thanks Phil - my pins could bit a bit 'tight', I'll double-check. By the way, I subscribed to BRM solely because of your articles and videos online and am currently watching your excellent 'Ground Cover' video. Let's put this post in the 'sycophancy at dawn' folder.  

[ITG]

5 minutes ago, latestarter said:

get something to clean the wheels of the Terrier properly

I’ve had good results with this. No connection except for satisfied customer. There are videos on YouTube of it.

 

https://www.themodelcentre.com/gm60-gaugemaster-trix-style-66602-oo-ho-scale-wheel-cleaner-cleaning-brush