When was smoking banned on British trains?

[Jim Martin]

I'm wondering because I took the Divine Mrs M to Wigan this morning, to put her on the 08:00 to Glasgow; and the preceding train (the 06:15 Birmingham-Edinburgh, due out of Wigan at 07:38) was held in the station until 07:54,  apparently while the police were summoned to remove someone who insisted on smoking their e-cigarette.

 

I can recall there being smoking compartments - maybe even whole carriages - on trains in my youth; and obviously there aren't any now; but I have no idea when the changeover occurred. Does anyone know?

 

Jim

[Bon Accord]

20 minutes ago, Jim Martin said:

I'm wondering because I took the Divine Mrs M to Wigan this morning, to put her on the 08:00 to Glasgow; and the preceding train (the 06:15 Birmingham-Edinburgh, due out of Wigan at 07:38) was held in the station until 07:54,  apparently while the police were summoned to remove someone who insisted on smoking their e-cigarette.

 

I can recall there being smoking compartments - maybe even whole carriages - on trains in my youth; and obviously there aren't any now; but I have no idea when the changeover occurred. Does anyone know?

 

Jim

 

It was a gradual transition over the decades with smoking compartments/areas being reduced and in turn eliminated.

As I remember the last operator to permit smoking onboard was Caledonian Sleeper (then part of ScotRail) and that carried on nearly until the smoking ban in public places circa 2004.

GNER still permitted smoking until around the same time, I think it was finally done away with upon the "Mallard" refurbishment programme. Coach B in standard was I think the smoking coach and about a third of coach M in First. The Mark 4s had a sort of compartment/gate setup for the smoking section in First.

[Tim V]

When smoking was banned on London Underground (now TFL), one got used to avoiding the former 'smoking' coach - it stank. Victoria Line circa 1984 I think.

[Nearholmer]

Yes, smoking carriages on the tube were truly evil places. Not only the smoke, of which there was often a thick fog, but smoke-impregnated upholstery and woodwork, and the floor was a literal ashtray, with a thick grey deposit of ash, studded with fag bits and pipe-dottle.

 

I actually used to smoke at the time, and still avoided them!

 

Smoking on trains on the Underground was banned in 1984, and on stations etc in 1987. It had actually already been banned before the Kings Cross fire, which is believed to have been initiated by a discarded cigarette.

 

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Oldddudders]

LU banned all smoking in the wake of the Kings Cross fire in 1987, when a fag-end was found to have ignited rubbish and 31 people died. 

[Nearholmer]

It had already been banned prior to K+, on a trial basis, and the ban was made permanent after K+.
 

 

[Steamport Southport]

29 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

LU banned all smoking in the wake of the Kings Cross fire in 1987, when a fag-end was found to have ignited rubbish and 31 people died. 

 

Likewise in the underground stations on the Merseyrail network and possibly others such as Glasgow.

 

You were fine elsewhere.

 

Answer for the total ban was 2005, this soon went nationwide. It had already been "phased out" but not banned elsewhere.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4192862.stm

 

Swiftly followed by the Smoking Ban gradually coming in. I remember an ex being told off in a pub in Wales for lighting up as they got it just before us.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoking_ban_in_England

 

 

Personally didn't affect me, but I did notice that many places and people stank, and not necessarily of tobacco!

 

 

Jason

Edited December 9, 2021 by Steamport Southport

[The Johnster]

Prior to the bans, all coaches had smoking saloons or compartments, and one got the impression from the BR 'no smoking' notices in the windows that smoking was considered the normal condition.  The GW and probably other pre-BR concerns, had 'smoking' notices in their windows, suggesting that this was a feature to be advertised to passengers.  In the case of a brake composite, smoking and non-smoking accommodation had to be provided in both first and second class, so at least 4 compartments, and in a GW B set the train was considered as a single vehicle for this purpose, so only one first class compartment was needed in each coach, one of which was a non-smoker.  Smoking compartments had ash trays, usually the tip up type. 

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

The GW and probably other pre-BR concerns, had 'smoking' notices in their windows, suggesting that this was a feature to be advertised to passengers. 

There were also "Ladies" notices in some windows ... but I don't think they were advertising the ladies' services.

 

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

In the case of a brake composite, smoking and non-smoking accommodation had to be provided in both first and second class, so at least 4 compartments, and in a GW B set the train was considered as a single vehicle for this purpose, so only one first class compartment was needed in each coach, one of which was a non-smoker.  

I think the Great Western still considered the lower orders to be third class, not second!

[MrSimon]

On the east coast you had to stop smoking and move out of the compartment before the train passed Berwick as Scotland banned smoking first. There was a partition in coach M and coach B on the 225s after the Mallard refurbs to reduce the amount of smoking accommodation from a whole coach to just a little area.  
 

I can’t tell if it went the same time as the smoking ban in England or sooner

[Compound2632]

I can well remember traveling on Inter-City services north of Oxford in the mid-late 1980s. Each air-conditioned Mk 2 standard open coach had the four seating bays at one end designated smoking and the four at the other end, non-smoking, with the weediest of screens at in the middle. Active smoking and passive smoking would have been more accurate designations.

[njee20]

The UK-wide smoking ban was 2007, I think that was the final death knell.

[Compound2632]

I can't recall there being any smoking on the 4-VEPs on the Reading line or the Kingston loop trains when I was commuting on them 1995-2000.

[Damo666]

7 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Yes, smoking carriages on the tube were truly evil places. Not only the smoke, of which there was often a thick fog, but smoke-impregnated upholstery and woodwork, and the floor was a literal ashtray, with a thick grey deposit of ash, studded with fag bits and pipe-dottle.

 

I actually used to smoke at the time, and still avoided them!

 

Smoking on trains on the Underground was banned in 1984, and on stations etc in 1987. It had actually already been banned before the Kings Cross fire, which is believed to have been initiated by a discarded cigarette.

 

Although OT, I remember this too.

 

I came to the UK in 1984. Would I be right in saying that there was a trial period of no-smoking on the tube (in the carriages only, on the platform was allowed) for the summer, and that this was then made a permanent feature immediatly after the trial period ended?

 

The ban on all LU property (platforms, ticket halls and entracce lobbies etc) followed a few year later. I don't know when but I trust your 1987 date.

[Compound2632]

22 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I can't recall there being any smoking on the 4-VEPs on the Reading line or the Kingston loop trains when I was commuting on them 1995-2000.

 

Aha. A quick bit of googling reveals that smoking was banned on all Network South East trains in 1993, though I haven't found the exact date. At that time I was working in Paris, actively passive smoking...

Edited December 9, 2021 by Compound2632

[andyman7]

45 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I can't recall there being any smoking on the 4-VEPs on the Reading line or the Kingston loop trains when I was commuting on them 1995-2000.

 

24 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Aha. A quick bit of googling reveals that smoking was banned on all Network South East trains in 1993, though I haven't found the exact date. At that time I was working in Paris, actively passive smoking...

I'm pretty sure South West Trains still had some smoking accommodation until the early 2000s on the slam door trains - I had a colleague who travelled to work in Reading that way rather than via Paddington for that reason.

Edited December 9, 2021 by andyman7

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

South West Trains still had smoking accommodation until the early 2000s on the slam door trains - I had a colleague who travelled to work in Reading that way rather than via Paddington for that reason.

 

Hum. I'm wondering where in a 4-VEP this accommodation was located. Certainly not as far as I can recall in any of the open areas. Maybe one of the first class compartments and one of the standard compartments (which I think were downgraded firsts)? This does also seem to be at variance with what I read about NSE but I can't imaging that SWT would have re-introduced smoking accommodation?

Edited December 9, 2021 by Compound2632

[andyman7]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Hum. I'm wondering where in a 4-VEP this accommodation was located. Certainly not as far as I can recall in any of the open areas. Maybe one of the first class compartments and one of the standard compartments (which I think were downgraded firsts)?

I'm pretty sure it was the compartments. I was a commuter on NSE Southeastern at the time and they banned smoking in 1993 but I think it didn't extend to longer distance South West division services because it was still considered necessary for the markets they served. 

[John M Upton]

On the South Central Division (as it then was) when I used to commute to college between September 1991 and June 1993, smoking on the slammers was confined to one coach, being one of the DTCsoL's at one end of CIG's and VEP's.  I always used to travel in the country end coach and it was a fifty fifty chance whether you got the smoking coach or not, the smoking one was usually a nasty fog with yellowed ceilings, smoked up windows and stinking upholstery with the little metal ashtrays still present.

 

I think it was about 1993 when they stopped it completely but it took a complete Eastleigh Works strip and and refurbish to finally banish the nasty taste and smell in there.

[Karhedron]

1993 for the NSE area fits my recollections pretty well. The old 117s operating out of Paddington had smoking sections but I think the 165/166 Turbos were non-smoking throughout when they were introduced around this time.

[Chris116]

I have never smoked but when I started work in 1972 I used to often use the smoking cars on my District Line journey from Southfields to Cannon Street as I could guarantee a seat in the smoking cars when the rest of the train was standing room only!

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

I can't recall there being any smoking on the 4-VEPs on the Reading line or the Kingston loop trains when I was commuting on them 1995-2000.

There were still smoking compartments on Waterloo - Reading trains well into the 1990s, and certainly inr 1995, but they were very limited in number.  I used to occasionally travel to/from work that way if I didn't fancy the rush hour on the Bakerloo Line (and paid for it with a much longer journey time from Reading but only a short walk from the train to my office at Waterloo).

[big jim]

I remember the smoking room in Chester booking in point back in 2001 when I started, a grim shade of magnolia, not through choice but nicotine staining, strangely it was an open room off a through corridor that you had to walk past to get to the main mess room so the smell made its way round the whole BOP anyway, it was also the TV room so if you wanted to watch it you had to sit in with the smokers! 

 

 

[The Johnster]

6 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

There were also "Ladies" notices in some windows ... but I don't think they were advertising the ladies' services.

 

I think the Great Western still considered the lower orders to be third class, not second!

 

Quite right.  I should have specified that I was talking about ex-GW B sets, not GW B sets...

[peterd777]

15 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Prior to the bans, all coaches had smoking saloons or compartments, and one got the impression from the BR 'no smoking' notices in the windows that smoking was considered the normal condition.  The GW and probably other pre-BR concerns, had 'smoking' notices in their windows, suggesting that this was a feature to be advertised to passengers.  In the case of a brake composite, smoking and non-smoking accommodation had to be provided in both first and second class, so at least 4 compartments, and in a GW B set the train was considered as a single vehicle for this purpose, so only one first class compartment was needed in each coach, one of which was a non-smoker.  Smoking compartments had ash trays, usually the tip up type. 

Yes, certainly unless clearly marked smoking was the default permission in trains, planes, work places, and even cinemas during the fifties and sixties and probably earlier.

I remember my parents, who were smokers, would always fuss and move along the platform if the specifically marked “no smoking” compartment pulled up in front of them.

Even smoking households (a rare occurrence) would have ash trays for guests.

Interestingly the buses had no smoking downstairs.