Building an 1870s style 4-4-0 in the way they built 1870s style 4-4-0s...

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Hello all,

 

This project has appeared in various threads elsewhere but I think this is where it will get the most interest. 

 

I have long been fascinated with the various live steam floor amusements produced as both models and toys right from the beginning of the railway age up till about 1890. And back in august I decided that I would attempt to scratch build one.

 

At the time the engine was going to be an LNWR 4-4-0 of some description, however this pedigree has since been lost.

 

The engine itself is made to the now almost extinct gauge of 2 inches, which was popular from about 1890 to 1917 when an article was published (at the request of Bassett Lowke) defaming it so that they could concentrate more materials on gauges 1 and 3 after the war. They being the main supplier of everything model railways at the time the gauge slowly died, with the last commercially made loco being turned out of the Northampton Works in 1927. The last engine I know of built to the gauge was made in 1947. 

 

So you could say this engine is even a new build project.

Its certainly the first engine this century made in gauge 2!

 

 

Here are some photos;

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Brunel" as the engine is named, takes it features form many different engines. The wheels and cab are based off those from ornate american 4-4-0s of the civil war era, and the nose and streamlined boiler fittings come from a french PLM Railway C class Coupe Vent locomotive. The chimney is a British design, and the livery is the early GWR Broad Gauge livery. In the last photo you an see two of the bogie wheels, both were just finished this morning. 

 

 

I originally intended the engine to be live steam, hence the copper boiler, but I did some math wrong and that didn't end up happening. It is now battery electric, the battery's will go in the yet to be made tender.

 

 

 

She's made in the style of one of the great old names of model railways and miniature engineering, Stevens Model Dockyard of Aldgate, London. 

 

They started off in 1843 it is thought making models for The Admiralty, but soon ventured into live steam locos, pond yachts, (some of them being HUGE), working model steamships, clockwork motors, live steam engines and boilers for stationary use, and even hydraulic motors.

 

There locos were well made almost entirely of brass copper and wood, as mine is bar the wheels, which have been 3d printed.

 

 

So what is this thread about? Well it will show the continued construction of this engine, and the accompanying broad gauge GWR train that will go with it. Along with about 100 feet of track.

 

 

Douglas

Edited April 26, 2022 by Florence Locomotive Works

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Some more progress has been made in the making of the third bogie wheel. 
 

These wheels take ages to make as I don’t have a parting tool the correct size for my lathe so I have to “bear down” upon the steel with a hacksaw whilst the work is rotated at a very high rpm. Not a fun experience but it works, just takes an hour when it should take 40 seconds.

 

I also found time to paint the other two bogie wheels, along with the sanding of both coupling rods.

 

 

 

Douglas

[MikeOxon]

It looks as though you have brought the concept of 'vernacular art' into railway modelling.

 

Mike

[Florence Locomotive Works]

37 minutes ago, MikeOxon said:

It looks as though you have brought the concept of 'vernacular art' into railway modelling.

 

Mike

It is possible I suppose, although the engine does have a factual basis for existence.

 

Had Brunel lived a bit longer I think he would have eventually discovered aerodynamics in about 1865, and told Gooch to make an engine testing his theories. This would be that engine, a lengthened and rebuilt Corsair.

[33C]

Literal "Steampunk"! Crazy drive wheels! Where did they originate?

[Florence Locomotive Works]

14 minutes ago, 33C said:

Literal "Steampunk"! Crazy drive wheels! Where did they originate?

They come from a CAD model made by me that was then fed into a prime number program by @AndyID and then they were 3d printed in a very tough plastic polymer by him. It’s an exceptionally cheap way of making  accurate wheels in large scale. 
 

The design of wheel is extremely rigid and can even absorb impacts up to a point.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Florence Locomotive Works

[MikeOxon]

1 hour ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Had Brunel lived a bit longer I think he would have eventually discovered aerodynamics in about 1865, and told Gooch to make an engine testing his theories.

One of the early GWR 'freaks' apparently did have some 'streamlining' although it doesn't seem to have lasted long (illustration from Sinclair, 'Development of the Locomotive Engine', 1907) :

 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

1 minute ago, MikeOxon said:

One of the early GWR 'freaks' apparently did have some 'streamlining' although it doesn't seem to have lasted long (illustration from Sinclair, 'Development of the Locomotive Engine', 1907) :

 

It doesn't look like it would have done much good either, unless the engine was intended to be sailed across the Severn estuary or something!

[MikeOxon]

Perhaps the plans got mixed up with one of Brunel's ships

 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Managed to get the 4th and final wheel of the bogie* finished this evening bar painting, and fitted it to the frames and axles.

 

The axles still need facing cuts made in the lathe along with shortening and neither of the right hand side wheels have been painted or trued up on the axles, so there is still work to do.

 

Once thats finished though the engine is done and it’s on to the tender!

 

 

 

*the bogie is made in the same way as full size with two sets of frames, one floating  and one fixed giving it in simple terms 4 wheel independent suspension. Unfortunately due to scale it can’t be sprung. The bogie pivot pin is sprung however, which helps to put more weight on the drivers.

 

Douglas

Edited January 4, 2022 by Florence Locomotive Works

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Managed to get the buffers turned up last night, unfortunately they aren’t sprung and I don’t have the material to make them so.
 

The actual buffer stocks are the water gauge gland nuts from a 1924 Weeden Mfg Co boiler. As is one of the domes on the engine, although that is a another part of the gauge.

 

 

Douglas

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Well a great deal has happened over the past few days.

 

On Saturday I discovered the driving wheels were out of gauge by about 4mm, meaning they had to be removed from their axles and the spacing altered with the bearings. This ended in disaster and 6 failed attempt's at quartering, and it took till Monday night working six hours a day to fix the problem.

 

However the wheels are now within in gauge tolerances. That's not the only change though!

 

 

I've always been a great admirer of the North British Railway, and I realized a few days ago that I had some leftover Midland Railway good brown in a spray can from my 4mm Kirtley Goods. This is very similar to one of the many shades of brown applied to NBR engines, so the engine was repainted.

 

 

 

 

 

The lining still isn't quite done and I still need to reinstall the salter beam to it's spring in order to complete the safety valve. The basis of this engine is a rebuilt Drummond "Waverly" class of 1878. These engines eventually spawned the Caledonian Dunalastairs which the frames measurements for my engine were taken from. This particular Waverly would have been rebuilt by Reid in 1903 for fast mixed traffic work. Lets just say he had recently taken a trip to the continent and wanted to try out the streamlining being used with success on the Paris Orleans!

 

Here's an unrebuilt Waverly:

 

https://gracesguide.co.uk/North_British_Railway

 

I've also just begun construction on the tender which will look like your average late Victorian/Edwardian 4-4-0 tender. So far both frames have been cut out and pilot holes drilled for everything. One frame stretcher has been turned but I think more of the structure will be made up of the tender floor and buffer/drag beams.

 

I've also managed to acquire some original 2 inch gauge rolling stock from about 1909, in the form of a Carette for Bassett Lowke Midland Railway brakevan in need of a fair bit of TLC. I got scammed on the price sadly but its mine!

 

 

Douglas

Edited January 21, 2022 by Florence Locomotive Works

[Caley Jim]

14 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

These engines are more or less the NBR versions of the Caledonian Dunalastairs which the frames measurements for my engine were taken from.

Not so, in fact the reverse could be claimed.  CR 721 'Dunalastiar' was delivered in August 1895.  This was McIntosh's development of the Durmmond CR '66' class which was in turn derived from his 'Abbotsford' class for the NBR.

 

Jim

[Florence Locomotive Works]

2 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

Not so, in fact the reverse could be claimed.  CR 721 'Dunalastiar' was delivered in August 1895.  This was McIntosh's development of the Durmmond CR '66' class which was in turn derived from his 'Abbotsford' class for the NBR.

 

Jim

Noted and the post shall be edited. Thank you. 1895 does seem late for a 4-4-0 to be introduced though, especially a mainline one.

[MikeOxon]

15 minutes ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Noted and the post shall be edited. Thank you. 1895 does seem late for a 4-4-0 to be introduced though, especially a mainline one.

Don't forget the splendid 1930s 'Schools' class 4-4-0, which were in service until 1962

[Caley Jim]

1 hour ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Noted and the post shall be edited. Thank you. 1895 does seem late for a 4-4-0 to be introduced though, especially a mainline one.

The CR continued to build 4-4-0's up until 1914, many of which lasted into BR days.  My Ian Allan 1960/61 compendium still list 25, in two classes, still in service.  The last was withdrawn in December 1962.

 

Jim

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Hello all,

 

Update time.

 

The engine is now more or less finished bar a few detail parts coming from Walsall Model Industries, (Westinghouse pump, brake hangers etc)  and construction is now starting on the tender.

 

Here are some photos of the finished loco in its splendid NBR livery except for the polished buffers.

 

 

 

 

The tender is made in the way tenders for large scale engines are usually made, using two flat plates for the frames which are cut and filed to shape. These then have holes drilled in them to clamp them together whence the all holes for axles etc are drilled. These frames are then held in place by the drag beam, the buffer beam and and an internal stretcher with machined steel angles made on the lathe. It’s a very sturdy setup.

 

 

 

The current modern bolts will be replaced with cheeseheads soon. 
 

The wheels for the tender are castings from Walsall Model Ind which will be machined here in Oklahoma, and I will also be using their GCR pattern axle boxes as I can’t find in any NBR ones and they seem the most similar. The interior of the tender will be filled with batteries and the tank top will be a varnished wooden board with an old style on/off switch on it.

 

Douglas

[MikeOxon]

Good Progress.  I'm also impressed by your bookshelf - what are the two old leather-bound volumes on the left?  Most of my old books are in the form of PDFs downloaded from the Internet Archive.

 

Mike

[Florence Locomotive Works]

14 minutes ago, MikeOxon said:

Good Progress.  I'm also impressed by your bookshelf - what are the two old leather-bound volumes on the left?  Most of my old books are in the form of PDFs downloaded from the Internet Archive.

 

Mike

Thanks Mike,

 

Those are full volumes 1 & 2 of “The Steam Engine” by Daniel Kinnear Clark, former CME of the Highland Railway.
 

They are very hard to find but I’m slowly hunting them down. These are the only 1890 original full volume copies I’ve ever seen, my dad bought them as a xmas present for me off the ‘bay. I know someone up in Mass. who has a full set of original half volumes though. 
 

Here’s an illustration from Vol 1 showing the Lancashire boilers in a typical cotton mill. They also have a copy of the original indicator diagram for Gooch’s first 4–2-2, I can send a scan should you be interested.
 

 

 

Douglas

[Florence Locomotive Works]

So a lot has happened in the past few months.

 

The main thing was that my work which I post in Instagram was seen by a rather influential Museum Designer and Industrial Historian, (his website: https://www.robertsonminiatures.com) who has taken me under his wing as some sort of an apprentice. A meeting was organised with him in Kansas City last weekend, and he requested Brunel come along as well as he wished to see my work in person. 

 

So the engine traveled north, and was subject to a close inspection by Bill. He owns, among many other wondrous old mechanical antiques, one of four known original Palmer micrometers. These were the first proper micrometers ever made and were made in France around 1848. We did a photo shoot of this amazing piece with both me and the engine present for Instagram, along with just some photos of the engine and micrometer, hears one of them. I never imagined my engine would sit next to the device that  enabled much of the modern world to exist. 

 

 

 

I also got to use his ornamental turning Rose Engine, made in 1835 by A. Duguet of Paris. It spent the majority of its life with its twin horizontal axis engine in Cartier's Paris workshops. They remained in Paris under the care of several owners up till a few years ago when Bill bought them and had them shipped to Kansas City, where they know live in his house, the one I'm seen using is in his living room!

 

 

Here's another shot of the Rose Engine, its a truly beautiful machine. Nothing for Brunel was made on it however Bill did teach me how to freehand turn Brass which I have used a lot recently, more on that later though. 

 

 

 

 

 

Getting back to the present, I've decided that Brunel will be getting outside cylinders. These cylinders are carved from Hardwood and have a (legal) elephant ivory veneer on the outside, which has carved flutes in it. They also have turned brass interiors liners which the "piston rod" slides in. Only one has been completed so far and I don't have pictures. 

The addition of outside cylinders also necessitates the rest of the outside valve gear. So a piston rod and connecting rod need making. Currency I've 90% finished one of these, the left hand side con rod which has a captive brass block bearing like the full size would have. (the coupling rods also have brass bearings but not captive blocks)

 

Here's a picture of part of it. (the hole has since been drilled)

 

 

 

I also used my new found freehand brass turning skills to make this simple little lamp. Its about 1/4 of an tall, and will be mounted on the engine's front left. I may make a twin for it one day, not sure. Its pictures atop the box of Polishing stone, made by the Carborundum Company in 1890, and its till in the same box. New old stock you see. 

 

 

I've also made a lot of progress on the tender chassis, which is now complete bar axlebox casting which need ordering from the UK, they will be GER pattern. The center frame stretcher also received some ornamental turning as nobody will ever see it unless you pick the tender up and look underneath it. It does fit the engine rather well though. 

 

Here's a picture, the drag beam is hardwood, from the same log as the engine's buffer beam and the cylinders. 

 

 

 

 

That's all for now, more to come soon.

 

 

Douglas

Edited April 26, 2022 by Florence Locomotive Works

[J. S. Bach]

How many title changes is this now?

[Florence Locomotive Works]

23 minutes ago, J. S. Bach said:

How many title changes is this now?

Only three😁

[J. S. Bach]

14 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

 ...snip... Here's a picture, the drag beam is hardwood, from the same log as the engine's buffer beam and the cylinders:

Douglas

You called this a "drag beam", just what does it do? Or, better yet, where is it located (maybe on the locomotive?), I may know it under a different name.

 

Also that wood piece appears to have a small split on the top at the end nearest the camera. Or is that just my imagination?

 

Anyway Brunel is looking better every time I see it.

 

When you are done with that, you can build me a B&O EM-1; ¼" scale will do fine! :>}

[Florence Locomotive Works]

6 hours ago, J. S. Bach said:

You called this a "drag beam", just what does it do? Or, better yet, where is it located (maybe on the locomotive?), I may know it under a different name.

 

Also that wood piece appears to have a small split on the top at the end nearest the camera. Or is that just my imagination?

 

Anyway Brunel is looking better every time I see it.

 

When you are done with that, you can build me a B&O EM-1; ¼" scale will do fine! :>}

thanks Dave,

 

The drag beam is what the weight of the train passes onto the tender through, its the piece of wood which does indeed have a crack, a small one though which isn't affecting its structural integrity. I think in the USA they are known as drawbars.

 

I'd like an EM-1 myself actually, well, really a Y6b😁.

 

 

Edited April 26, 2022 by Florence Locomotive Works

[J. S. Bach]

Y6bs were kind of nice but an EM-1 just screams raw power. In one of Staufer's B&O POWER books there is a photo of triple-shotted EM-1s doing Sandpatch. The only term that comes to mind is "Heavy metal thunder"! Oh, to have been trackside! And I am not that much of a steam fan.