Catch points at Hemyock

[SteveS]

Hello everyone,

Was wondering would anyone know as to how many car h points there where at Hemyock say from 1950 onward. I have a couple of books that show 2 that are close to the station,  it can’t seem to see if there was one located by the goods shed.

 

any help would be appreciated. I’m want to try to model this town in 7 mm.

 

SteveS

West Chicago IL

USA

[bécasse]

There were no catch points at Hemyock, normally catch points are incompatible with single track.

 

There were, however, five trap points, four single-blade and one double-blade, this last adjacent to the cattle dock. Trap points are worked in conjunction with their paired point (so effectively forming a sort of semi-blind crossover) and their presence is required by law to protect the running line from runaways.

[Harlequin]

"Great Western Branch Line Termini" shows 4 traps points in the station itself from 1931 onwards and you can see them all in the photos.

"An Historical Survey..." Volume 1 doesn't show the 1931 layout but does show a trap to the east of the southern level crossing - i.e. in the Dairy.

So 5 makes sense after 1931.

 

Good luck with your plan, Steve. Hemyock in 7mm sounds wonderful!

 

[KeithMacdonald]

For the woefully ignorant (myself included), can anyone explain the difference between catch and trap points?

 

[LMS2968]

Catch point were normally on a running line with a gradient and would be trailed by a passing train. In the even of a breakaway and part of the train running back, it would go through the catch points and be derailed to prevent it going any further, Traps are generally at the end of sidings, loops and similar locations. Normally, the traps are set away from the running line and into a dead end so unless the points into the running line have been set by the bobby, any attempt to pass them will derail the train passing them without authority. The traps and points on to the running line would be worked together, so if the points are set for the running line, the traps will be open. When the points are set to allow the train to leave the siding, the traps will be closed.

 

Generally, catch points are set against the direction of travel while traps are set in the direction of travel.

[Joseph_Pestell]

3 hours ago, Harlequin said:

"Great Western Branch Line Termini" shows 4 traps points in the station itself from 1931 onwards and you can see them all in the photos.

"An Historical Survey..." Volume 1 doesn't show the 1931 layout but does show a trap to the east of the southern level crossing - i.e. in the Dairy.

So 5 makes sense after 1931.

 

Good luck with your plan, Steve. Hemyock in 7mm sounds wonderful!

 

 

iirc Hemyock was built as a light railway and so, legally, would not have required traps. They were presumably retro-fitted when the GW took over.

[JohnR]

18 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

iirc Hemyock was built as a light railway and so, legally, would not have required traps. They were presumably retro-fitted when the GW took over.

 

I stand to be corrected, but I believe the GWR required the company to install them as a condition of operating the line from the very beginning. This (and other similar demands by Swindon) caused a lot of friction with the local company, when I think the Bristol & Exeter had been more accommodating. 

[bécasse]

5 hours ago, Harlequin said:

"Great Western Branch Line Termini" shows 4 traps points in the station itself from 1931 onwards and you can see them all in the photos.

 

The 1931 track layout diagram in that book omits one of the traps (the one at the station end of the loop), it was there though and can be seen in photographs. The one at the Tiverton Junction end of the same loop was worked from the West GF, the others from the GF in the station building.

[Harlequin]

6 minutes ago, bécasse said:

The 1931 track layout diagram in that book omits one of the traps (the one at the station end of the loop), it was there though and can be seen in photographs. The one at the Tiverton Junction end of the same loop was worked from the West GF, the others from the GF in the station building.

 

You're right. I can see it now that you point it out. Thanks!

 

[The Stationmaster]

Simple way to remember it -

 

Catch points are there to catch things that runaway in the wrong direction.

 

Trap points are there to trap things moving in the right direction when they shouldn't be moving.

 

Catch points used to be spring or 'unworked' points where the wheels of a train moving in the right direction pushed the open point blade up against the stock rail as they trailed through it.  There have however - just to confuse - been occasional instances of worked catch points (sometimes described as 'slotted' or 'spring slotted' points) where a signal box lever is used to close them when movements are made through them in the facing direction for shunting purposes or on a single line.  There were even some power worked catch points provided on teh WCML when it was resignalled where they were normally closed for certain trains to pass through them at speed without constantly bashing the moving parts n but which were opened after a train conveying vehicles with a possibility of an uncontrolled breakway had passed through them.

[DLT]

2 hours ago, JohnR said:

 

I stand to be corrected, but I believe the GWR required the company to install them as a condition of operating the line from the very beginning. This (and other similar demands by Swindon) caused a lot of friction with the local company, when I think the Bristol & Exeter had been more accommodating. 

 

Quite so; and all described in this book The Culm Valley Light Railway  a very good read, highly recommended.

As is this:  GW Branch Line Termini, Paul Karau  Apologies if you already have these.

Best of luck, and I look forward to seeing the layout!

Cheers, Dave.

 

PS  Have you seen Chris Lamacraft's 4mm model? Quite as few photos on the web, including these:  http://www.uckfieldmrc.co.uk/exhib10/hemyock.html

[LMS2968]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

There have however - just to confuse - been occasional instances of worked catch points (sometimes described as 'slotted' or 'spring slotted' points) where a signal box lever is used to close them when movements are made through them in the facing direction for shunting purposes or on a single line.  There were even some power worked catch points provided on teh WCML when it was resignalled where they were normally closed for certain trains to pass through them at speed without constantly bashing the moving parts n but which were opened after a train conveying vehicles with a possibility of an uncontrolled breakway had passed through them.

There was a set of worked catch points at St Helens Junction on the Liverpool and Manchester Railway route on the Down (Liverpool bound) track, just in front of the trailing connection into Bold power station, and at the bottom of the Whiston Inclined plane. In this position, traffic would travel in both directions over the Down line so there was a need to reverse them for any train propelling into the power station.

Edited January 20, 2022 by LMS2968

[pb_devon]

See this ‘demonstration’ of a trap point in operation: 

 

[Nearholmer]

18 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

iirc Hemyock was built as a light railway and so, legally, would not have required traps.

LR’s were required to ‘trap’ sidings giving onto passenger running lines, just like anyone else, but were explicitly allowed to use worked scotches or derailers (Continental practice) for the purpose, which was far less well thought-of for ‘heavy’ railways.

 

In practice, many LR’s seem to have used trap points anyway.

 

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Joner]

57 minutes ago, pb_devon said:

See this ‘demonstration’ of a trap point in operation: 

 

I used this video to good effect to show my son how they worked.

[bécasse]

Deraillers weren't just used on the continent, the LNER was quite a significant user of them, especially in tight situations.

[31A]

10 minutes ago, bécasse said:

Deraillers weren't just used on the continent, the LNER was quite a significant user of them, especially in tight situations.

 

At least one at Darlington station which is still there to my knowledge and demonstrated itself with a Pacer a few years ago!

[Trog]

There was one on the north bay at Wolverhampton Queen Street, at least until a few years ago.

[Wickham Green too]

On 20/01/2022 at 16:52, The Stationmaster said:

....  There were even some power worked catch points ... which were opened after a train conveying vehicles with a possibility of an uncontrolled breakway had passed through them.

Hmmmm  -  obviously not failsafe !

[caradoc]

There were (I believe they are gone now) automatically worked, under Glasgow Central Signalling Centre, catch points on the Up WCML just on the Cambuslang side of Rutherglen East Jc. The normal position was open, ie to derail anything running away in the wrong direction, and only when a route was set were the points closed. 

 

 

[Trog]

There was a worked catch point in the Down New line just on the north side of the crossover at the Rugby end of the slow line, at Northampton (No5 Junction?). I think that has also gone now.

[keefer]

Were worked catch points not used when there was a likelihood of a loose-coupled train being stopped astride them i.e. at a signal?

As there was a chance that the train could set back slightly and hence derail a couple of wheels on a normal sprung catch?

Although I suppose the couplings would be tight on an incline anyway.

[LMS2968]

Rolling and even setting back slightly to restart a heavy train against a gradient was common enough, and the catch points would be located in places were it was known they would not be straddled by or far in rear of the stopped train. Their location would also be part of a driver's route knowledge, and if he was struggling to keep the train moving he would stop in advance of the catch points, for for very obvious reasons.

 

Their location had to be thought out. At St Helens Jct. mentioned earlier, the platforms were at the foot of the incline, but the catch points were at the approach side to the station. Should the catch points ever fulfil their function, and I don't think they did, and were in the logical place, runaway vehicles would be spread over the platform, something likely to cause comment by any passengers standing thereon.

 

Although catch points might prevent a major collision with a following train, they would result in a very messy clean up operation and traffic disruption, possibly on a strategic main line. Shap had many catch points, but there was a rule that any train exceeding, I think it was, nineteen unfitted wagons had to have banking assistance. This wasn't to help the train engine over the summit but to ensure there could be no running back through the catch points with the resulting mess.

 

You might have to have them, but you tried very much not to use them.

[Nearholmer]

Now that we’ve gone way OT into the subject of catch points:

 

There was a set of catch points on the approach to our local station when I was a boy, probably about half a mile in rear of the home signal, and I only knew what they were because there was a big sign next to them saying “catch points”. The sign was positioned so that it could only have ever been read by the guard of a passing train looking back from his van. Given the track arrangement, I can’t conceive of a need to shunt anywhere near the catch points.

 

Were such signs common? Were they there to warn against ‘setting back and taking a run at it’ in the event of a train getting stalled?

[Nearholmer]

Now that we’ve gone way OT into the subject of catch points:

 

There was a set of catch points on the approach to our local station when I was a boy, probably about half a mile in rear of the home signal, and I only knew what they were because there was a big sign next to them saying “catch points”. The sign was positioned so that it could only have ever been read by the guard of a passing train looking back from his van. Given the track arrangement, I can’t conceive of a need to shunt anywhere near the catch points.

 

Were such signs common? Were they there to warn against ‘setting back and taking a run at it’ in the event of a train getting stalled?