Common coaching stock in 1951-55

[Keegs]

Hi All,

 

I am not sure if this is the right place to put his but here goes:

 

I've had a good look at this page(awesome site btw!): http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriescoach1948.html

I am wanting to know what would commonly be seen in 1951-55 on the Bristol-Taunton line(roughly) in terms of coaches(express & local).

 

I understand that the BR mk 1(64ft?) was released in 1951 and I believe these would be in carmine&cream for corridor and crimson allover for non-corridor.

 

I also take it from reading up about the Hawksworth 63ft that they were in the minority and the majority of stock would be Collett 57' and Toplight (57'?)

 

So basically what would the average spotter see on that route (the make-up).

Hopefully it's clear enough, please let me know if further clarification is needed...

[dpgibbons]

For the early 50s the carriage stock would still be overwhelmingly if not exclusively ex-GWR. The WR was slow to upgrade to the standard stock, and even crack services such as the Cornish Riviera were not formed exclusively from Mk1 until the 1960s. An additional deterrent to mixed formations was that the GWR and BR used different corridor connectors.

Edited February 25, 2022 by dpgibbons

[Hal Nail]

9 hours ago, Keegs said:

I believe these would be in carmine&cream for corridor and crimson allover for non-corridor.

Carmine and crimson are the same colour - crimson is the correct name for the early BR "red".

 

GWR coaching stock is a huge topic to cover in a quick reply (well it was quick originally!). Also ive found researching my slightly later era, 4 years is quite a long time so changes occur.

 

In that broad time frame there would have been a number of family types still around as you mention, but there were loads of different Collett designs: bow ended, flat ended, sunshine, excursion, centenary etc and there were non-corridor versions of many of these too - the different profiles show up even of they are fundamentally similar.

 

For a simple free resource try one of the online photo sites such as rail online or transport library and try searching by location. There are several books on GWR coaching stock eg Russell, Harris which a quick Google search will find and the Bradford Barton books (eg the GWR steam in action series, or steam around Bristol) often have a lot of photos from that period and can be picked up cheaply.

 

Depending what your plans are, if r-t-r then what is produced will limit you far more than what was prototypical.

 

Edit. I was under the impression from my books that by mid 1950s mk1 rakes were pretty common on express trains (albeit often with an ex GWR restaurant car/set with converted corridor connections). Lots of photos of early crest castles on mk1s so certainly towards the end of your period the mainline types would be suitable. Suburban mk1 stock maybe less so as GWR types were numerous plus ex mainline coaches were cascaded down.

 

Ian

Edited February 25, 2022 by Hal Nail

[bécasse]

Don't forget that there would be a fair amount of ex-LMSR (or later BR-built clones) around too on that route, probably including some mixed into WR trains. Possibly some Gresley ex-LNER vehicles too, but very much in the minority compared with the ex-LMSR stock.

[Prometheus]

And possibly, if your train stopped at Taunton, an ex-CR/LMS 12-wheel ‘Taunton Brake’ through coach from way up north.

 

tony

[The Johnster]

The overwhelming bulk would have been ex-GW designs; the Hawksworths were still being built in the early 50s and sets of them preceded mk1s on the named trains.  Collett designs were all still in service and would have been the most common, and these can be very broadly divided into 57' and 70' bowenders and 60' flat enders with sliding ventilator windows.  A good bit of Churchward era stock was stil in use as well, though the older types were being withdrawn by then, toplights and concertinas.  Trains of mk1 stock had refurbished Collett restaurant cars.

 

Coaches are repainted about every 7 years, so you would see stock in the 1942-5 and 1945-7 GW liveries, and the very early BR chocolate and cream with Gill Sans numbers as well as crimson/cream, with crimson/cream becoming more common the timeline progresses.

[Keegs]

Thanks everyone, good to know.

 

So to sum it all up:

 

• Mostly Collett stuff
• Some Churchwood
• Some ex-LMS coaches in BR guise (would this be painted into Crimson&Cream as opposed to Choc?)
• Some Hawksworth on Express/Named
• Little if any MK1
• Mixture of Crimson & Cream and Choc & Cream liveries.

Cheers!

[Keegs]

On 25/02/2022 at 20:27, Hal Nail said:

Carmine and crimson are the same colour - crimson is the correct name for the early BR "red".

 

GWR coaching stock is a huge topic to cover in a quick reply (well it was quick originally!). Also ive found researching my slightly later era, 4 years is quite a long time so changes occur.

 

In that broad time frame there would have been a number of family types still around as you mention, but there were loads of different Collett designs: bow ended, flat ended, sunshine, excursion, centenary etc and there were non-corridor versions of many of these too - the different profiles show up even of they are fundamentally similar.

 

For a simple free resource try one of the online photo sites such as rail online or transport library and try searching by location. There are several books on GWR coaching stock eg Russell, Harris which a quick Google search will find and the Bradford Barton books (eg the GWR steam in action series, or steam around Bristol) often have a lot of photos from that period and can be picked up cheaply.

 

Depending what your plans are, if r-t-r then what is produced will limit you far more than what was prototypical.

 

Edit. I was under the impression from my books that by mid 1950s mk1 rakes were pretty common on express trains (albeit often with an ex GWR restaurant car/set with converted corridor connections). Lots of photos of early crest castles on mk1s so certainly towards the end of your period the mainline types would be suitable. Suburban mk1 stock maybe less so as GWR types were numerous plus ex mainline coaches were cascaded down.

 

Ian

 

Thanks Hal, I will track down these books before I put any $ into BR coaches (The 1951-55 is going to be dual-era on my 1930-35 layout) -cheers =)

[Hal Nail]

6 hours ago, Keegs said:

The 1951-55 is going to be dual-era on my 1930-35 layout

It's not for everyone but you could have them different liveries on each side and get two rakes for the price of one.

 

Especially easy on my 7mm mk1s as Lionheart make them with separate sides, which I simply swapped around and can easily change back if I ever sell them.

[Forward!]

As others have said, carriage workings are a vastly complicated topic, especially if you're starting to consider through coaches and cross-country workings. But if you're interested in finding out more about UK passenger train workings, I would recommend joining the BR coaching Stock email group- https://brcoachingstock.groups.io/ 

 

Will

[Hal Nail]

On 26/02/2022 at 10:25, The Johnster said:

Coaches are repainted about every 7 years, so you would see stock in the 1942-5 and 1945-7 GW liveries, and the very early BR chocolate and cream with Gill Sans numbers as well as crimson/cream, with crimson/cream becoming more common the timeline progresses.

I read somewhere the other day that the oft quoted 7 years was for a full strip and repaint but a quicker spruce up happened as required, so new liveries might have been be applied more quickly than that.

 

I'm sure you would get a few lasting years but always very hard to know how quickly changes became widespread - if nothing else, photographers might have preferences and not take or publish everything!

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

On 25/02/2022 at 10:53, bécasse said:

Don't forget that there would be a fair amount of ex-LMSR (or later BR-built clones) around too on that route, probably including some mixed into WR trains. Possibly some Gresley ex-LNER vehicles too, but very much in the minority compared with the ex-LMSR stock.

LNER gangwayed vehicles were more awkward to use because they had Pullman gangways whereas GWR and LMS vehicles used standard gangways.  So while ex LNER vehicles had through workings onto/via the Western they would not have been favoured for mixing into a train between ex GW vehicles because gangway adaptors would be needed on the vehicle each side of them = much messing about.  Same went for Mk 1s so mixing would again try to be done on the basis of keeping use of adaptors to the minimum but of course was unavoidable when ex GW diners had to be marshalled into trains formed of Mk1s - adding a strengthener coach at the end of a train wasn't so much faff.

 

I know from people who had worked there that at Old Oak gangway adaptors were not much liked by shunting staff so they tried to avoid having to use them as much as they could and I expect other passenger yards weren't much different.

[The Johnster]

7 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

I read somewhere the other day that the oft quoted 7 years was for a full strip and repaint but a quicker spruce up happened as required, so new liveries might have been be applied more quickly than that.

 

I'm sure you would get a few lasting years but always very hard to know how quickly changes became widespread - if nothing else, photographers might have preferences and not take or publish everything!

 

 

 

Exactly; the 7 year gap is not an accurate guide to repaintig dates, but AFAIK a 'spruce up', while it might involve patching and revarnishing, it would as a rule not include repaints into new liveries.  As a rule, that is; there were no doubt instances when stock was repainted to match rakes for named expresses, or to repair accidental damage, or vandalism.

 

Photographers are as subject as anyone to their own preferences, but those few who concentrated on rolling stock (like H C Casserley) in a highly lococentric world at a time when film was expesnsive and not to be 'wasted' probably concentrated on recording the new liveries when they appeared rather than photographing the old liveries when they survived, and often what we want to know is when the livery lasted to; we know when it was introduced!.  For example, by the early 60s, locos showing G W R livery were considered photogenic, but it is sometimes difficult in those cases to be certain that the livery was a survivor or a result of excessive wear revealing the livery having stripped off the later livieries painted over the top.  It has been suggested that locos employed on Paddington-Old Oak ecs duties were subject to this because of the chemicals used in the carriage washing machines.  Swindon's painting of locos was not highly regarded at Caerphilly, where they reckoned their painting of locos was much better.  Locos were repainted at major overhauls and these were carried out on a mileage basis rather thant at regular time intervals, so older liveries tended to survive longer on locos that racked up lower total mileages over given time periods, and new liveries appeared more quickly on express passenger locos that achieved higher daily mileages.  Records were kept of loco mileage for this reason.

 

This is a little, so, back to carriage stock and 7 years.  Dated photographs of established provenance are the best source of information, but determining the exact date that a coach recieved any given livery is an inexact science, and one can often only pin it down to 'sometime before the photo date' and guesstimation based on the condition of the vehicle's finish has to be resorted to.  Add to this the subjective interpretation of colour on black and white images, and the variation in film, developing and printing, digitising, and display processes, and we are in a very imprecise situation.  The difference between unlined crimson for non-gangwayed stock on a dull day and unlined maroon on a bright day, for instance, might show an element of overlap in colour, never mind black & white.

 

So one gets into the 'educated guesstimate' school of  modelling.  If you have a black and white photograph of a non-gangwayed coach reliably dated 1960, is it of a crimson liveried survivor from the pre-1956 era, or a maroon one from the 1956-9 era.  The second is not much more likely than the first at that time given that there were a lot more coaches painted unlined crimson over the 6 years between June 1948 and 1956 than unlined maroon over the 3 years 1956-9.  After 1960 the situation changed rapidly, as non-gangwayed coaches were withdrawn as the result of the establishment of high density dmus for suburban work, and the crimson livery stock was first to the wall. followed by the unlined maroon.  By early 1962 such non-gangwayed as remained was virtually all lined maroon, suggesting a very rapid program of repainting, but in fact it was the result of a very savage program of withdrawals and retaining the most recently overhauled, and hence painted, stock.

 

Awareness of the period is vital in getting such educated guesstimation as close to right as possible, and it is often our only recourse.  The period between 1945 and 1965 covers some of the most popular modelling timescales, and was one of immense variety of liveries for both locos and stock.  Definitive information is not always available for top link express locomotives, the best recorded, and as you go down the food chain becomes rare as rocking horse doo-doo.  The best we can do is to try to avoid liveries that were the least likely at our particular modelling period, and there are other factors besides the date new liveries were introduced to bear in mind, especially withdrawals of older stock throughout the period, the rate of which accellerated over time and especially post-Beeching.  To me, this is one of the most fascinating aspects and I have chosen the period for my layout as 1948-58 for this reason.  Many of my coaches, and some of my locos, are liveried by guesstimation; all of my freight and mineral stock is, though I would be reluctant to claim that it is particularly educated.

 

I am aware of this and it bothers me a bit,  My policy is to keep an eye out for provenanced photos and be willing to alter liveries if better information comes to light, but I may be close to exhausting whatever photographic resources there are concerning an area of South Wales that was a good way down the food chain as far as photographers were concerned.  It amazes me how much information I have been able to glean!  Google images have proved invaluable, and it is important not to dismiss an image because you've seen it before; this may be a better reproduction and more information might be squeezed from it than you had before.

 

Some publications do not help, and I do not intend to criticise the authors as compiling information for books is a lot of work and it would be amazing if inaccuracies did not creep in.  I would mention John Lewis' 'Great Western Auto Trailers', which goes into very considerable detail with regard to livery variations, as using the term 'plain maroon' to describe what is often unlined crimson livery, which is confusing as it fails to differentiate between that and unline maroon (1956-9) livery, though the withdrawal dates given for some trailers can serve to clarify the matter.  John Hodge and Stuart Davies's excellent Tondu Valleys books contain some obvious dating anomalies as well, and it is important to be aware that provenance is not as assured as it may first appear to be in some photos.