What did the GWR use to show speed restrictions signs?

[kingfisher9147]

Does anyone know what the GWR use to show a speed restriction in place? Did they use the cast iron signs numbers? Mike 

[phil-b259]

13 minutes ago, kingfisher9147 said:

Does anyone know what the GWR use to show a speed restriction in place? Did they use the cast iron signs numbers? Mike 

 

Generally speaking the GWR didn't signpost speed restrictions*! In common with most other railway companies drivers were expected to know about them from the notices posted in depots and their route knowledge.

 

IIRC the practice of explicitly signing them started on the LNER in the 1930s and only migrated to the rest of the network after nationalisation when BR decided it was a good idea.

 

* Obviously there might have been the odd one or two for for nieche situations away from the main line and cast iron numbers on a wooden back board or a straight cast iron sign might have been used as per other similar signage.

[Mike_Walker]

They were used in rare instances as shown in the photo below.  The housing was conical with a lamp at the back to illuminate the sign.

 

 

This is at Bourne End and the sign below permitted locomotives of the 48xx class to do 10mph.

 

There was also a 40mph example on the Down line adjacent to the old Dainton SB and probably dozens more.

 

[The Stationmaster]

The GWR illuminated indicators for permanent restrictions of speed - as illustrated in Mike Walker's post above  - date back to 1894  (or rather that is the earliest dated reference to them which I can find).    A GWR document lists 19 of them as being in use, in various parts of the system including branch lines, at September 1920. Their use was no doubt subject to some sort of system but it is far from easy to understand what that was until a greater explanation was published in 1958.  

 

In the 1920s/30s they were installed at various junctions, usually where the standard restrictions of speed did not apply to diverging routes - in that case they were 'splitting' indicators mounted on a bracket structure with. a separate speed indicator for each route (although I don't think that ever exceeded two routes).  A good example was the one for Heywood Road Jcn installed when the Westbury Avoiding Line was opened, it was removed in April 1965; the one for Fairwood Jcn at the opposite end of the Westbury avoider had been removed on the previous day.

[steve fay]

Are there any drawings available 

[D9020 Nimbus]

On 17/05/2022 at 09:39, phil-b259 said:

IIRC the practice of explicitly signing them started on the LNER in the 1930s and only migrated to the rest of the network after nationalisation when BR decided it was a good idea.

Quite possibly because the LNER's Chief (Civil) Engineer — the fortuitously named Mr JCL Train — became BR's Chief Engineer (and got knighted as Sir Landale Train). Why the LNER introduced them is harder to say — although the Pacifics were fitted with Flaman recording speedometers.

Edited August 6, 2022 by D9020 Nimbus

[Cwmtwrch]

On 17/05/2022 at 09:39, phil-b259 said:

Generally speaking the GWR didn't signpost speed restrictions*! In common with most other railway companies drivers were expected to know about them from the notices posted in depots and their route knowledge.

I have a couple of south Wales WTTs from 1957/8, and they contain pages of speed limits, in great detail. A little more than a dozen are shown as having permanent markers.

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, steve fay said:

Are there any drawings available 

I have only ever seen outline sketches without any dimensions and they don't really give any idea of the size of the things.  The photos on Mile Walker's post above give far better information than the sketches.

 

14 hours ago, Cwmtwrch said:

I have a couple of south Wales WTTs from 1957/8, and they contain pages of speed limits, in great detail. A little more than a dozen are shown as having permanent markers.

As I noted above there were only 19 of them on the entire GWR network in 1920.  

 

Permanent restrictions of speed (PRS in Western speak) were always listed in the Service/Working Timetables on the Western until they were transferred to the Sectional Appendixes in c.1968/69.  The oldest examples I have in my archive is in 1891 STTs while the most recent is from 1967 but as some of the Sectional Appendixes were not reissued until 1969 it seems quite likely that speeds for some areas remained in WTTs until then.

 

From what I saw v back then the WR didn't really start using the LNER pattern cutout signs in any number until the 1960s -  I can remember them appearing in various places in the London Division where previously there had been no lineside indication at all of PRS speeds

[bécasse]

There seems to have been a BR network-wide roll out of LNER-style stencil permanent speed restriction signs in the very early 1960s (probably 1960 itself) which were initially painted white. Experience during the harsh spring of 1963 led to them all being repainted yellow.

 

Prior to that, the Southern, like the GWR, had few specific indications of the commencement of permanent speed restrictions (although the LBSCR before it had been relatively prolific) and those few used a similar board to the [T] used to indicate the termination of temporary restrictions but with a capital delta replacing the T thus [△], a termination [T] board was also provided. I have never seen any rules stating where these (very rare) signs were to be provided but suspect that they may have been provided where the speed restricted length was difficult to identify as a result of the lack of landmarks.

[The Johnster]

On 06/08/2022 at 16:28, D9020 Nimbus said:

Quite possibly because the LNER's Chief (Civil) Engineer — the fortuitously named Mr JCL Train — became BR's Chief Engineer (and got knighted as Sir Landale Train). Why the LNER introduced them is harder to say — although the Pacifics were fitted with Flaman recording speedometers.

Not that speedometers slow anyone down; standing on any motorway bridge for a few minutes will prove that!

[Compound2632]

On 08/08/2022 at 16:27, The Johnster said:

Not that speedometers slow anyone down; standing on any motorway bridge for a few minutes will prove that!

 

Ah but recording speedometers that are going to be analysed by the powers that be are another question!

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Ah but recording speedometers that are going to be analysed by the powers that be are another question!

But unlike France such things were far from common during the steam era in Britain (I think the LNER used them on some of their pacifics but that was about it as far as I'm aware).

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

But unlike France such things were far from common during the steam era in Britain

 

I suspect that's because of the 75 mph (120 kph) legal speed limit dating from the Second Empire. French express passenger engines were designed to haul their trains at a steady 75 mph over long distances - no slogging uphill and dashing down - which is one of the reasons that compounding was so successful there.

[Castle]

On 07/08/2022 at 12:55, The Stationmaster said:

I have only ever seen outline sketches without any dimensions and they don't really give any idea of the size of the things.  The photos on Mile Walker's post above give far better information than the sketches.

Hi All,

 

I’m pretty sure here is a preserved example on the branch demonstration line at Didcot. I’ll take a look this week. There is certainly the ‘STOP’ version of the same sort of thing there. Perhaps a nice chat with Alan at Modelu is in order? He’s a regular visitor…

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[Castle]

Hi All,

 

So, a little walk down the branch at the end of the day reveals…

Here’s the front view…

 

[Castle]

 

…side view…

[Castle]

 

…and from the rear.

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[Castle]

 

…side view…

[Castle]

Bonus Picture!

 

 

This is the STOP version.

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[2251]

Here is a photo (obviously not mine) of the "splitting" pattern at Wolvercote Jct in April 1963. I am afraid I do not know the history, apart from the fact that it went c 1964.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

That's interesting as some of the 1930s ones had normal bracket signal type metalwork supporting the dolls.  It looks as if that one at Wolvercote was like that because of gauge clearance restrictions.