Power problems

[dap]

Hi,being new to model trains I've come across a problem .I've a layout with two circuits and now one turnout.When my train goes through the points to the inner track it's fine.It will then complete one circuit until it tries to pass the points but stops.It appears the train is isolating the track somehow. How is this possible. Any 💡 ideas?

[dap]

I'm new to model trains and already have a problem..my layout includes two circuits connected by turnout..my train will pass from outer track to inner track through the points no problem. It will then do a circuit of the inner track until it tries to pass the points it appears to short out and stop.If I push the train by hand passed the points then flick the track back it will continue..any ideas?I'm confused 😕 

[ITG]

Maybe a little more info will help.  When you say the train passes from outer to inner, that sounds like it’s two turnouts arranged as a crossover? In which direction is the train going through the turnouts, when it stalls?  Where are your power feeds? Do you know if you are using dead or live frogs? A diagram would help, showing all this.

Guessing, it sounds like maybe you have isolating turnouts and the power feed in such a place that by definition, no power is getting through, when the turnout is set in a particular direction. Or the turnouts are not laid flat, which means a loco pick-up wheel is leaving the track at a critical point, as another pick-up wheel traverses the dead (plastic) frog (the V in the turnout).

 

Other aspects to the answer to this problem may depend on how many locos and controllers (DC or DCC?) you are planning to use simultaneously, as that will affect the solution.

 

Ian

[steviesparx]

Without more info it's a bit of a guess, but is the power just connected at one position ?  To the outer track, perhaps ??

 

Both 'circuits' will need to be supplied with power - the easiest way would be a link from outer to inner, using similar power connectors to those being used to supply the outer 'circuit', then linked to each other...

 

Hornby do just such a pack - Hornby R8201 Track linking wire with two power clips ( Typically about a tenner }

 

More experienced modellers will no doubt tell you better / cheaper ways to achieve the same effect, but for a newbie it pretty much does what it says on the tin ( packet ? ).

Edited March 12, 2023 by steviesparx
More Info

[The Johnster]

Welcome to the madness hobby, dap.  As I understand it you have two circuits of track with a ‘crossover’ between them so that your train(s) can move from the inner to the outer circuit, two points joined together.  Assuming your track to be Hornby/Bachmann/Peco setrack, rigid sections that are joined together (this is what most people start off with), the points (turnouts, or switches if you are American), are ‘self isolating’, which simplifies wiring.  You can confirm this by looking at the ‘frog’, the vee-shaped piece of rail in the middle of the point.  If there is a plastic section at the actual vee, your points are self-isolating.  
 

This means that the current goes from the feed position on the track to wherever it is directed by the way the points ate switched; the points act as switches.   From what you have described, you have connected the feed from the controller to your outer circuit, and the loco goes around that with no problems.   When you change the points for it to run through the crossover onto the inner circuit, it will run around that circuit until it reaches the crossover point again, but it’s weight and momentum will move the point blades to set them for a through run on the inner circuit.  This will disconnect the current from the feed on the outer circuit, and the loco will stop.  
 

Two ways around this problem.  The quickest, cheapest, and easiest is to attach two bridging wires from the outer circuit to the inner circuit, outer rail to outer rail and inner rail to inner rail or you’ll get a dead short as soon as you change the points.  You will now be able to run your loco continuously, under complete control, anywhere on the layout.  
 

The better way is to acquire an additional controller and feed the inner circuit from that.  You will now be able to run two locos controlled separately, independently of each other, and drive either one from it’s circuit to the other circuit.  The points will isolate both circuits from each other except when they are switched for a loco to run between the circuits.  Again, ensure that polarity is the same on both circuits to avoid accidental shorts if one controller is not fully off when you are using the crossover. 
 

Hope I’ve guessed your problem right and that this helps!  Good luck!

 
 

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by The Johnster

[dap]

Well sir you definitely guessed my problem correct.I do have Hornby link wires before the crossover and opposite side of the layout near the feed from my controller. I've tried using insulated track connectors before the crossover to no avail. If I manually move the train passed the crossover and flick the switch back the train will run again...so how do I stop the train knocking off the power?

[frobisher]

In a nutshell, you need two feeds from the controller.  One to the outer loop, and one to the inner loop.  You do not need insulating rail joiners (they'd actually make your situation worse).

 

The power is currently being routed to the inner circuit by the the points in the crossover.  You'll only get power on the inner loop when both are set to allow the crossover.  If either of them is set against (as will happen when you try to run through the other side of the inner point when completing the inner loop, the circuit gets broken.  You can get the same effect by setting the outer point back to not crossover.

[The Johnster]

This will be fine as long as there is only one locomotive.  You don’t need the insulating joiners, just current supply to each circuit.  Should you then acquire another locomotive, with a loco running separately on each circuit, you will need a separate controller for it.  
 

But, and this is where things start to become complicated, if the crossover points are set for a loco to run from one circuit to the other, the controller will move both locos at half the power even if the other controller is off, which you don’t want.  The second loco needs to be isolated electrically from the current powering the first.  This can be done in one of three ways:-

 

.The second loco can be positioned on a section of track isolated at each end from the current by isolating joiners or a gap in the rail.  You will need an on-off switch wired to either side of the isolated section to energise it when required.  
.The second loco can be positioned on a siding or loop line, as the points will prevent current from reaching it if they are switched away from it.  
.The layout can be converted to DCC (Digital Cab Control) operation.  In this scenario, 12vdc is supplied continuously to all the track at a set polarity, and locos are a activated and controlled by chips aboard them, which respond to electronic pulses sent to the chips via the track from a DCC controller.  Only one controller is needed, as each loco is activated and deactivated by a code tapped in on the controller; once it is activated it’s direction and speed is determined by the controller, as can be lights and sound effects if required.  

 

DCC is clearly a superior system, providing better control of locomotives, better pickup performance because of the continuous 12 volt supply, and greatly simplified layout wiring with no need for isolating sections as locos can be de-activated at will anywhere on the layout; one controller, one pair of wires (well, not quite, bridging wires will be needed in some situations with dead frog points).  Points and signals can be operated from the one controller as well.  The drawback is that it is expensive, a costly chip being needed for each locomotive with sound capability costing more again, and older locomotives will present difficulties with installing the chips.  
 

The traditional DC control method you are already using is much cheaper, but can lead to complex switching arrangements and complicated control panels on larger layouts.  The effect of dirt on pickup performance at lower speeds is more pronounced because of the lower voltages, and more attention must be paid to cleaning track, wheels, and pickups (which can be delicate and don’t like being messed around with). 
 

I would advise choosing a system early in the layout-building process and sticking with it, before you amass a larger number of locos, as converting a large number to DCC will be a big hit to your pocket at a time when you have already bought the isolating switches, point and signal switches, extra controllers and other paraphernalia for DC control, which will have to be written off.  A simple layout can be perfectly adequately controlled with DC, though, and only you will be able to decide which best suits your needs and which you are able to best afford.