Modifying Peco Set Track insulfrog turnout

[ITG]

Hi,

although I normally use modified electrofrog turnouts on my DCC layout, I need to use the tighter radius of a set track turnout in a hidden storage area. In an effort to avoid potentially poorer running over a dead frog turnout, I’m thinking I could modify it to to keep the respective blades and the inside exit rails (from the V) permanently live.  Thus I wouldn’t be relying on blade contact to transmit power. There shouldn’t be any need for frog power switching as the frog itself would still be dead.

is my logic correct? Has any one done this or similar?

thanks

Ian

[Il Grifone]

There shouldn't be any problem as long as the wing rails are also dead (sufficiently to avoid contacy with passing wheels).

Personally however, I would arrange switching for the frog, preferably with a separate micro switch to avoid relying on blade contact. Especially with the tight radius, power pickup needs all the help it can get.

[Pete the Elaner]

I've modified streamline insulfrog points in this way.

I cut the rails with a disc in the same places as modern electrofrogs, wired up the sections just like an e-frog point. It checked out with a multimeter exactly as intended so it was all ready to get point motors with microswitches, then another project got in the way.

[DCB]

5 hours ago, ITG said:

Hi,

although I normally use modified electrofrog turnouts on my DCC layout, I need to use the tighter radius of a set track turnout in a hidden storage area. In an effort to avoid potentially poorer running over a dead frog turnout, I’m thinking I could modify it to to keep the respective blades and the inside exit rails (from the V) permanently live.  Thus I wouldn’t be relying on blade contact to transmit power. There shouldn’t be any need for frog power switching as the frog itself would still be dead.

is my logic correct? Has any one done this or similar?

thanks

Ian

That might help but its not the real problem.  The dead frog is the problem.  99% of the time my locos stall with a wheel on the plastic frog, almost never does the blade contact cause problems on ready to lay points, Hand made trackwork will probably need the extra feeds to every bit of rail due to non conductive fishplates., only a few Ready to lay  Peco points with no contact tags on the blades really give blade contact issues (indoors Outside is a different world)     Better to live frog the point with a metal arrow head replacing the plastic frog as I have done in the past, even on Triang Super 4 points.   Live frogs were the norm pre 1960 when some locos only had one contact per side and I try to make sure a loco with one axle pick up will run everywhere on the layout,    

Edited June 8, 2023 by DCB

[Flying Pig]

4 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

Personally however, I would arrange switching for the frog

 

3 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I cut the rails with a disc in the same places as modern electrofrogs, wired up the sections just like an e-frog point.

 

Why complicate things?  It's a dead frog Setrack point and the OP says he is using DCC.  Unless there's a specific need to isolate the switched roads with the point (probably not in DCC) then just connecting the closure rails to the adjacent stock rail will work fine.  Hornby even sell point clips for this purpose.  One day all Setrack points will probably be Unifrog and be connected this way out of the box.

 

 

[Pete the Elaner]

1 hour ago, DCB said:

That might help but its not the real problem.  The dead frog is the problem. 

 

If that was the case, Peco would not have updated the design of their Electrofrog points to make the frog a completely separate section & recommend the power for this to be switched separately.

But they did, so they have acknowledged this as an issue.

Blade contact may be ok on a brand new point, but with a bit of age & weathering, it is truly dreadful.

 

48 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

 

Why complicate things?  It's a dead frog Setrack point and the OP says he is using DCC.  Unless there's a specific need to isolate the switched roads with the point (probably not in DCC) then just connecting the closure rails to the adjacent stock rail will work fine.  Hornby even sell point clips for this purpose.  One day all Setrack points will probably be Unifrog and be connected this way out of the box.

 

 

 

As above, contact between rail & point blade is a problem on track which has been weathered & is not brand new.

There is another issue too though.

OO gets away with sloppy tolerances & these can cause a wheel to touch a rail it shouldn't. Many of us with mainly new locos also have the odd old one which seldom gets used, & has coarser wheels/clearances than we remember. If they do touch a wrong rail, then it will cause a short & get put away again because they are a 'poor runner'. While a short circuit is not very kind to DC, it won't overload immediately. DCC will detect a fault & shut the system down.

[ITG]

Thanks all.

I’ve been busy today dismantling the old layout, and guess what? I discovered I’d used a few dead frog (forgotten about) Streamline turnouts and all I’d done to them was add Hornby clips. And actually I don’t recall any running problems, other than operator error. That said, it was my intention to not use any dead frogs on the new layout, but a space issue identified in planning forced me to reconsider with the potential use of a set track turnout. Hence this query.

I’m still pondering options. The turnout in question would be on a reverse loop of 2nd radius curves, with the straight route being to a couple of storage roads. If using a Streamline turnout, it just pushed the whole balloon loop out slightly, but it’s debatable which option I go for… a Slightly bigger loop with live frog, or smaller with dead frog. I may not make the decision until tracks are being laid, but it’s handy to prepare for options.

Ian

[ISW]

On 08/06/2023 at 08:38, ITG said:

Has any one done this or similar?

Ian,

 

Yep, done exactly that on my layout where space constraints meant I had to use a settrack turnout instead of my usual electrofrog ones. I 'converted' the settrack ones (I did a total of 4) to behave just like an electrofrog, including the fitting of a microswitch to change the frog polarity.

 

Here's a few photos to explain.

 

This was my 'plan', but I didn't bother with the 'metal vee' part in the end:

 

Topside of turnout, showing the location of the rail cuts:

 

 

Underside, showing the cabling; red/black for power, green for the frog:

 

It all worked out rather well, and my Class 08's don't have any problems stalling on them (so long as the wheels/pickups are clean!).

 

Ian

[Pete the Elaner]

3 hours ago, ISW said:

Ian,

 

Yep, done exactly that on my layout where space constraints meant I had to use a settrack turnout instead of my usual electrofrog ones. I 'converted' the settrack ones (I did a total of 4) to behave just like an electrofrog, including the fitting of a microswitch to change the frog polarity.

 

Here's a few photos to explain.

 

This was my 'plan', but I didn't bother with the 'metal vee' part in the end:

 

Topside of turnout, showing the location of the rail cuts:

 

 

Underside, showing the cabling; red/black for power, green for the frog:

 

It all worked out rather well, and my Class 08's don't have any problems stalling on them (so long as the wheels/pickups are clean!).

 

Ian

 

Precisely what I had done with some older short radius insulfrog streamline turnouts, including using the stock-switch rail joiners as proper feeds too. I don't know why so many post diagrams of them simply as links; it provides more reliability for relatively little work.

[ISW]

16 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

including using the stock-switch rail joiners as proper feeds too. I don't know why so many post diagrams of them simply as links;

Pete,

 

Indeed. I designed (?) my power supply droppers to the tracks/turnouts with this in mind from the beginning. I generally don't bother with droppers to short lengths of track immediately adjacent to turnouts as a result (I know, many will disagree with this theory ...).

 

I therefore made these little veroboards for each turnout (some for more than one turnout) which take the power feed and 'distribute' it to the turnout, while also creating the path/feed for the power to the frog (via a microswitch):

 

These often became conflagulated (?) with simple track feeds as well, as can be seen in the selection below for one of my Upper Level baseboards:

 

Simple but effective.

 

Ian