Giving up 2mm, back to N gauge?

[kingrail]

I have been dabbling with 2mmFS for a couple of years but unfortunately I am about to accept defeat!Hopefully I wont be banned for saying this.

I cant believe I fell into the trap of over ambitious too big first project so its myself largely to blame.

I can however be very positive about making track though. The Track book is excellent, theres lots of advice available and the jigs make construction achievable for a novice. Construction has been at a modest pace and rewarding.

My downfall however has been loco construction and conversion. This was not helped by my project being steam era rather than diesel. I have struggled with chassis construction and with wheel lathing down . Even though I am modelling pre grouping and there is very little rtr I still feel I can get better looking and running models and rolling stock especially in a realistic timeframe. 
So my plan is to keep the project and buildings completed but change to N gauge using finetrax. Nice looking track and rolling stock but with compromise over the wrong gauge and maybe a few compromises with stock prototypes.  My model is industrial so I need some very small turnouts so I thought I would still scratchbuild these using my 2mmfs turnout making skills.

So finally my question is have others done this before and is it possible? A quick online search doesn’t show much for trackbuilding in British N. Templot does N gauge so this is not a problem.. C&L do a roller gauge but I would miss triangular and button ones, but I guess I could make these homemade ( i have  a 3d printer). As the track (code 40) is the same I am assuming I can use 2mm  jigs for filing down blades, making crossover blades and for making crossovers? Is this correct ? 
Has anyone else gone down this road and have any tips?
Many thanks

Matt, 

[ShadowinLinby]

We all learn my making mistakes Matt (and that's not your choice to turn to 2mm fs). For years I lied to myself that I'd never be able to make Walchaerts motion. Then my mindset changed. I decided if other people could do it then there was no reason why I shouldn't be able to. So I buckled down and had a go and you know what, turns out I can.  Before you throw the towel in either reach out to an area group or join us on the ZAG. There are plenty of people on there who will help you

 

Chris

[Izzy]

I’m sorry you’ve found 2FS a bit beyond you in terms of loco construction.However I can’t quite see how converting to N is going to help much. Perhaps there are RTR steam locos I am not aware of, for providing loco wheels/chassis will be the big issue. 
 

Making track to N standards is quite easy. Using soldered track people have been doing it for decades. No different to 2FS apart from the gauge and flangeways gaps. I first did it way back in the early 1970’s. You can make your own jigs and gauges if needed, out of metal or plastic., nuts, bolts, washers etc. And there is now the British Finescale option. 
 

Hope you find a solution that suits what you want.

 

Bob

Edited August 1 by Izzy

[Nigelcliffe]

9 hours ago, kingrail said:

I.. Templot does N gauge so this is not a problem.. C&L do a roller gauge but I would miss triangular and button ones, but I guess I could make these homemade ( i have  a 3d printer). As the track (code 40) is the same I am assuming I can use 2mm  jigs for filing down blades, making crossover blades and for making crossovers? Is this correct ? 

 

2mm crossing clearances are different to N, so you can't use a 2mm crossing with N wheels or visa-versa.   Track and wheel standards all interwork, the wheel tyre (tread and flange) interact with the turnout crossing (both the wing rails and the V) and check-rails.  N has a collection of standards (multiple ones, some incompatibilities but some significant overlap), so you have to decide which N standard you're using and work with it. 

 

As Izzy said, not sure what you'll do about the locomotives you need, unless the change of track is also a change of locomotive prototype.  Scratchbuilding mechanisms in N is considerably harder than in 2mm, two factors being: (a) the chassis is significantly narrower due to the reduced back-to-back ( at least 1mm less internal width between the frames) and (b) finding locomotive wheels for the scratchbuilder in N.  

 

 

[Gareth Collier]

I've numerous pre-grouping locos in 'N'. None have a completely scratchbuilt chassis, it is a case of finding a suitable RTR donor or modifying existing chassis. The Dapol Terrier is an ideal starting point to convert into a tender drive as its wheelbase and wheel diameter match many early locos.

Loco drivers is also not as hard as it was since Farish opened their online spares website. The Farish range covers a lot of sizes.

It's not as hard as you may think, you just need to be creative.

[Orion]

If you are interested in industrial locomotives, a complete change of scale is worth considering. There are many examples of small layouts in 4mm and 7mm scales. You can still scratchbuild stuff, but there is a lot of RTR now to help you along.

 

Just a thought.

[Hibelroad]

If you are modelling pre group industrial then I don’t think there is much available RTR in N gauge. Building track is half the battle when moving away from RTR and it sounds like you have mastered that. I’m sure that there must be someone in the 2mm association who could help with motive power, either at a cost or in exchange for something you can help with such as track building. 

[kingrail]

Thanks for all the replies. As usual this forum is a great source of info and useful advice.

 

It’s the lack of suitable era 2-3 rtr that has actually delayed my decision for some time.

I wouldn’t be planning to scratchbulid chassis so would be going more down the route suggested by Gareth. However even having a rtr chassis would be great and I have already have some experience in CAD & 3D printers to make loco bodies that way, aswell as scratch building. I have already detailed a ‘shapeways’ 2mm Barclay (not my 3d design) in this way. Running reliably is also important as the plan would be to exhibit (And I also enjoy running trains) and on this front I have seen the massive improvements in N gauge over the last 20years because I also have a modern image N gauge layout.

I am also optimistic about the potential for future releases. N gauge has often followed oo gauge so I am hoping for some small steam industrial. Would be nice if Dapol could shrink their Hawthorne Leslie! On that front does anyone not think there might be a case for a crowdfunder for such a loco in N gauge. (Barclay or Hawthorne Lesley). Small locos do usually sell well in N but the problem is that theres been quite a few recent releases, efe saddle and Sonic.

 

With regards the track building this seems like it should work. I would probably start by making to 2mm finescale standards and see how it goes. I think I have read elsewhere that finetrax n doesn’t quite use these standards but modern n gauge wheels really are now quite good and I think I have read that they can run even on 2mmFS track?
 

I would also like to say that I have had no regrets with 2mmfs and found the challenge and rewards great. Whatever I decide I will be keeping my membership and equipment!

[Steven B]

Modern RTR should run on 2mm plain (although they might bump along the sleepers a little). They'll struggle to get through 2FS pointwork as the clearances are finer than the RTR wheelsets.

 

Have a look at the British Finescale kits - they're the N Gauge equivalent of the 2mmSA Easitrac and should help launch your finescale-N endeavours!

 

Steven B

[queensquare]

58 minutes ago, kingrail said:

 

With regards the track building this seems like it should work. I would probably start by making to 2mm finescale standards and see how it goes. I think I have read elsewhere that finetrax n doesn’t quite use these standards but modern n gauge wheels really are now quite good and I think I have read that they can run even on 2mmFS track?
 

Just to avoid confusion, N wheels will not run on 2FS track without the profile being altered ( flange thickness in particular) and the b to b being altered.

Out of interest, what is era 2-3?

 

Jerry

[alastairq]

For N, industrial, why not keep a look-out for these?

 

https://www.ndriveproductions.com/n-drive-kits

[njee20]

1 hour ago, queensquare said:

Just to avoid confusion, N wheels will not run on 2FS track without the profile being altered ( flange thickness in particular) and the b to b being altered.

Out of interest, what is era 2-3?

 

Jerry

Yes they will on plain track (Easitrac at least), just not through point work.  

[queensquare]

2 minutes ago, njee20 said:

Yes they will on plain track (Easitrac at least), just not through point work.  

Not sure you’ll build much of a layout with no point work - particularly pre-group industrial.

 

Jerry

[Caley Jim]

2 hours ago, queensquare said:

Out of interest, what is era 2-3?

Can someone please answer this question?  If only for Jerry and myself.

 

Jim

[yaxxbarl]

16 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

Can someone please answer this question?  If only for Jerry and myself.

 

Jim

Jim,

 

Going off of https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/techniques/uk-model-railway-eras-explained/, eras 2 and 3 are the period from 1875 up to the 1923 grouping, and from grouping till nationalisation, effectively 1875 to 1947.

 

In my view, era 2-3 would be the period of a decade either side of the 1923 grouping.

 

Cheers,

 

John

[woodenhead]

58 minutes ago, queensquare said:

Not sure you’ll build much of a layout with no point work - particularly pre-group industrial.

 

Jerry

Welsh tramroad - between simply tipping empty waggons off the track and the most basic points from Richard Fothergill, didn't they skew the track instead?

[njee20]

3 hours ago, queensquare said:

Not sure you’ll build much of a layout with no point work - particularly pre-group industrial.

 

Jerry

Narrow the gauge through the point work then. Cav Millward calls it “N2”. 

[kingrail]

Apologies, yes for era 2-3 I meant eras 2 and 3 which is pre grouping and then the ‘big four’.

 

Yes also aware that even recent N is not upto 2mmfs standards and has been said already British N gauge is a mix up of standards. 

Old style ‘pizza cutters’ do hit the chairs on the inside of 2mm easitrac. This has happened to me when I have used a lathe to reduce flange width and tread width on an old Farish wagon. (Although 2mm do obviously have replacement wheelsets I was experimenting in saving some cash aswell as working on my lathing skills). On the old stuff you need to reduce the wheel diameter(‘the pizza cutting edge’)  aswell as change the gauge and tread width.

However newer N gauge stuff is much more refined. Not knowing if I’ll need to alter anything else other than templot and gauge I was going to first build a turnout as per 2mmfs standards using the 2mmfs jigs and see how that goes. Not sure if anyone else would knows what other adjustments I may need to make?  
Flange width is easier IMHO to reduce than other things on a lathe but I’d rather avoid dismantling all stock and doing this so I am hoping if needed an adjustment to the turnout maybe relatively simple eg maybe a slight alteration to the crossing vee which I suspect if anything would be the sticking point.
 

Another negative from my planned switchis that Caley Jims Caledonian railway kits (which I can fully recommend) will probably be impossible to convert to N gauge. Still expecting the signals to look OK and not too out of scale!

 

Thanks all for the comments

 

[Caley Jim]

1 hour ago, kingrail said:

Another negative from my planned switchis that Caley Jims Caledonian railway kits (which I can fully recommend) will probably be impossible to convert to N gauge.

Almost certainly.  They were designed around the standard 2FS wagon underframe dimensions, as in the yearbook, using the 12.25mm axles.  I seem to recall there was a suggestion to make N-gauge wheels available on 12.25mm axles, but I'm not sure whether the flanges might interfere with some parts.

 

As both @Nigelcliffe and @queensquare have said, trying to run N-gauge wheels through 2FS turnouts, however one or the other is altered, is doomed to failure for several reasons and I would expect that any attempt at a 'mix and match' solution would also be fruitless.

 

You say you have struggled with loco chassis construction, but don't give any indication of what your problems have been. The latter may enable some of us to guide you.   Sometimes what appears to be a major issue is relatively simple to sort out once you have the experience.   Rather than attempting to do a conversion by turning down wheels, have you tried one of the Association conversion chassis?   I would doubt if there are any of us in the Association who have not had their share of failures when just starting out.

 

Jim

Edited August 1 by Caley Jim
Typo

[Chris Higgs]

21 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

Almost certainly.  They were designed around the standard 2FS wagon underframe dimensions, as in the yearbook, using the 12.25mm axles.  I seem to recall there was a suggestion to make N-gauge wheels available on 12.25mm axles, but I'm not sure whether the flanges might interfere with some parts.

 

As both @Nigelcliffe and @queensquare have said, trying to run N-gauge wheels through 2FS turnouts, however one or the other is altered, is doomed to failure for several reasons and I would expect that any attempt at a 'mix and match' solution would also be fruitless.

 

You say you have struggled with loco chassis construction, but don't give any indication of what your problems have been. The latter may enable some of us to guide you.   Sometimes what appears to be a major issue is relatively simple to sort out once you have the experience.   Rather than attempting to do a conversion by turning down wheels, have you tried one of the Association conversion chassis?   I would doubt if there are any of us in the Association who have not had their share of failures when just starting out.

 

Jim

 

2-027 are the N gauge wheels on 12.25mm axles. Only 3-hole though, not so suitable for pre-group. They certainly work fine with normal brakegear, the only issue might possibly be with 8-shoe fitted brakegear.

 

4-028 are the coach equivalents.

 

Both specifically produced for N Gauge modellers to use the Association etched chassis and bogies. 

 

Chris

[Izzy]

2 hours ago, kingrail said:

However newer N gauge stuff is much more refined.

 

In looks maybe but not in the basics. The flange depth may be nowadays be the same as for 2FS i.e. 0.5mm, but it's not just the flange width that is different but the whole tyre profile. The root radius is much bigger. This has an advantage in that it helps keep most of the front face of the flange away from the rail and thus assists with running through point blades, there is less to catch on the leading edge of the blades. The downside is this means the flangeway gap needs to be larger. Skimming N wheel backs to reduce flange thickness leaves this alone and so there isn't the same amount of sideplay as found with 2FS wheels with a smaller root radius. So altered N wheels will run on 2FS track with flanges skimmed but standard N wheels cannot run through 2FS flangeways even if the gauge is reduced to 9.0mm i.e. to those standards used for 1: 160 modellers. The flangeways need to be at least 0.8mm.

 

Bob

[Chris Higgs]

5 minutes ago, Izzy said:

 

In looks maybe but not in the basics. The flange depth may be nowadays be the same as for 2FS i.e. 0.5mm, but it's not just the flange width that is different but the whole tyre profile. The root radius is much bigger. This has an advantage in that it helps keep most of the front face of the flange away from the rail and thus assists with running through point blades, there is less to catch on the leading edge of the blades. The downside is this means the flangeway gap needs to be larger. Skimming N wheel backs to reduce flange thickness leaves this alone and so there isn't the same amount of sideplay as found with 2FS wheels with a smaller root radius. So altered N wheels will run on 2FS track with flanges skimmed but standard N wheels cannot run through 2FS flangeways even if the gauge is reduced to 9.0mm i.e. to those standards used for 1: 160 modellers. The flangeways need to be at least 0.8mm.

 

Bob

 

I think trying to mix and match track standards is just a waste of time now. British Finescale Fine-N turnouts are available,  if you want to model N just use them, or handbuild points to the same flange gaps. Yes the checkrail gaps are greater, although 2FS ones are not to scale either, they are more EM equivalent rather than P4. But the massive advantage is your N gauge mates can just bring around their stock and run it.

 

I rather suspect quite a few people at the Expo in Derby did not clock the fact that the layout they voted the member's choice was not 2FS. So the checkrail gaps were not that noticeable.

 

Chris

[queensquare]

4 hours ago, njee20 said:

Narrow the gauge through the point work then. Cav Millward calls it “N2”. 

Indeed, but then it’s no longer 2FS!

 

Jerry

[njee20]

No, who said it was? I clarified that your statement that N gauge stock doesn't work on 2FS track is incorrect. It works fine on plain track. Like I said. You do need to adjust pointwork appropriately. Like I said. This has been done successfully on a number of layouts, Cav's "Burton-on-Trent" springs to mind. Like I said.

 

This level of "ackchually" pedantic responses are a good part of why people are put off 2FS (and P4).

[queensquare]

2 hours ago, njee20 said:

No, who said it was? I clarified that your statement that N gauge stock doesn't work on 2FS track is incorrect. It works fine on plain track. Like I said. You do need to adjust pointwork appropriately. Like I said. This has been done successfully on a number of layouts, Cav's "Burton-on-Trent" springs to mind. Like I said.

 

This level of "ackchually" pedantic responses are a good part of why people are put off 2FS (and P4).

…. but if you adjust the point work it’s no longer 2FS!! It has nothing to do with being pedantic. 2FS standards are a set of track and wheel standards, they come as a package, you can’t pick and choose bits.

N gauge wheels do not work with 2FS standards. They will run on 2FS plain track but that’s just essentially N gauge track that’s half a mm over gauge and N gauge wheels are wide enough to cope -  they won’t run through 2FS point work without adjustment so it’s no longer 2FS it’s something else N2, N fine. In  the same way, EM wheelsets will run quite happily on P4 plain track but not through P4 point work.

Jerry