Appeal of Hornby Railways pre-China era

[KTM]

Hi all!

 

I'm more of a dabbler type modeller due to other hobbies but in the last couple of years I've started to collect some Margate manufactured Hornby models from the days when I first got into model railways (1970s).  This is a complete turn-about as I sold much of my OO gauge collection off in the 90's to fund an optimistic O Gauge plan (which is very much on hold).

 

I have experienced and fully appreciate the detail and running qualities of the current generation of models but there is something about them that doesn't sit comfortably with me.  I've always looked upon model trains as long term prospects and note the short production life and spares availabilty associated with the fast-moving technology of the latest models all points to a limited operational life.  In comparison, the unfashionable Triang/Hornby rationalised approach and common use of parts supports a much longer service life. 

 

The hobby has moved on and we are able to buy some beautifully detailed (albeit fragile) models but I'm talking about the less realistic but more robust offerings that could be removed from the box without breaking (!).  It seems the never-ending quest for more detailed high-priced realism means that any manufacturer that goes against the grain will be tarred and feathered in our new world order of on line reviews and elitist modelling.  

 

Aside from my own bumbling modelling skills, I've reached an age at which grandchildren are appearing and there is a chance to share my hobbies, in particular the joy of model railways.  I want them to touch, feel and play with the locomotives, and stock.  I even want them to discover what happens when you set the points the wrong way and they crash into one another like we all did 'accidentally', before they became precious.  On a more general note, without this close physical interaction I doubt we will engage newcomers to the hobby.

 

Luckily we still have the plentiful secondhand stocks available from Triang/Hornby/Lima/ Airfix etc. that have stood the test of time and don't have to be treated like the Crown Jewels.  These toys (and that is what they are) were made to be handled and abused and should remain reliable with some occasional TLC.  I really don't mind that they are not perfect scale replicas.  After all, when did that actuality matter when running trains on the floor, under the sofa, 18" curves, working the signals etc.?

 

As adults, I hope we never forget what makes model railways so enjoyable.

 

Jon

 

 

 

[Captain Slough]

i've recently disposed of a large proportion of my collection and I have to agree. Of all the 55-65-year old Triang/Hornby Cl 31s, 37s, Hymeks, Blue Pullmans, AL1s, EM2 and DMUs I retrieved from storage - every single one worked immediately.  they'd been in a loft since circa 1998

 

A good few of the 1980s and 90s ringfields were not so lucky and had to be sold as potentially repairable / for spares.

[John R Smith]

9 hours ago, KTM said:

The hobby has moved on and we are able to buy some beautifully detailed (albeit fragile) models but I'm talking about the less realistic but more robust offerings that could be removed from the box without breaking (!).

 

Exactly. And a further problem is (in my experience) that these beautifully detailed models are in many cases, lousily engineered. So they often run very poorly and are pretty much impossible to set up correctly.

 

 

[Phil Parker]

Surely this is the beauty of this hobby? If you want mega-detailed RTR, and many do, then it's available. If you prefer simpler models, then there are tons of them on the second-hand market. Something for everyone.

 

A few years ago, I did a piece on the HRCA, and visited one of their events. Looking around, if you just want to get into model railways cheaply, then that's the way to go. Six late-era HD coaches for under 30 quid? Locos for not that much more. Spares are available, and you can strip them with a screwdriver, spanner, and a modicum of skill.

 

10 hours ago, KTM said:

The hobby has moved on and we are able to buy some beautifully detailed (albeit fragile) models but I'm talking about the less realistic but more robust offerings that could be removed from the box without breaking (!).  It seems the never-ending quest for more detailed high-priced realism means that any manufacturer that goes against the grain will be tarred and feathered in our new world order of on line reviews and elitist modelling.

 

I've opened lots of boxes, and so far, never broken a model doing so.

 

As for "tarred and feathered" - any evidence of that? The nearest you'll find on this forum is some grumpiness about aspects of Hornby's "Design Clever" era, not a sparklingly thought-out policy. Other than that, I think you are inventing conflict where there is none. What you will find is those top-end models selling. The highest spec of Bachmann's diesels always go first for example.

 

Please stop trying to set different strands of the hobby against each other. Live and let live. If you are enjoying your hobby, you are doing it right.

[KTM]

2 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

Please stop trying to set different strands of the hobby against each other. Live and let live.

 

Huh?  I didn't think I had done that - It certainly wasn't my intention 🤔.

 

You make a good point about the high spec' models selling well, although it is fair to say they are manufactured in much smaller quantities.  As it happens, I'd  be prepared to pay £300 for a modern Hornby loco if I really wanted it.  Should I ever do so, my expectation of longevity will be inversely proportional to the level of detail and built-in technology!

 

Jon

 

 

[Ben B]

I too like the older Hornby models, though I realise that for me it's mainly because of nostalgia; it's the period I was into 00 as a child, 1980's to 1990's. When my youngest was getting into railways from about the age of 6, we bought her (secondhand) models of this era, for their robustness and reliability, and she used a lot of my older trains too.

 

It feels like there was a nice range at this time, quite varied, and lots of interesting contrasts. Things like fun working accesories such as the tipper, but also some very good realistic building kits in the Town and Country range that stand up even today. And imagine a world where the locomotive section of a catalogue can have a Class 90 at one end in the latest livery, and a clockwork freelance tank loco (whose design dated back decades) at the other...

 

I'm a fan of the Railroad range; mostly, it's the models of my childhood, but often with better-running, more controllable chassis. That said, my old Spamcan "Fighter Pilot" (my favourite childhood loco) runs beautifully now, just as it did in the 1990's :)

[cypherman]

I only have a couple of post 1980s engines. Tornado, Cock of the North, J83 and about 5 Terriers. Everything else is pre 1980s. I have just bought a Wrenn Devizes Castle and a H/D Golden Fleece. Both in excellent condition. Just waiting for them to arrive.

Edited September 3, 2024 by cypherman

[micklner]

Hornby et al need to totally seperate their current ranges into clearly marked items, as to the age group, the actual intended use, etc .

 

Most makers  are now ignoring the actual simple basic Toy Market, with what they are making.

 

e.g

Call the Railroad Range  by Hornby something else more obvious as to useage and quality, which is not a vague halfway house range that it is at the moment. Someone buying for a child, does'nt want to pay £200 plus for a model, which then falls to bits as soon as it used roughly, or even simply played with.

 

Even worse for the makers and retailers anything priced in that Top range then  simply does'nt sell until the prices are reduced.

 

Many people will not touch secondhand on anything. Why? they have no idea how to mend anything broken , they simply bin it as of when required.

 

 

[cypherman]

Hi all,

micklner please do not mock and discourage those who will not buy second hand models, But just throw them away when they seem to be broken. I mean that's where I get half of my models from......... 🤣😂

[micklner]

1 hour ago, cypherman said:

Hi all,

micklner please do not mock and discourage those who will not buy second hand models, But just throw them away when they seem to be broken. I mean that's where I get half of my models from......... 🤣😂

Mocking !! where does it say that ?? hence the word "anything" .🤣

[GoingUnderground]

On 02/09/2024 at 13:39, micklner said:

Hornby et al need to totally seperate their current ranges into clearly marked items, as to the age group, the actual intended use, etc .

 

Most makers  are now ignoring the actual simple basic Toy Market, with what they are making.

 

e.g

Call the Railroad Range  by Hornby something else more obvious as to useage and quality, which is not a vague halfway house range that it is at the moment. Someone buying for a child, does'nt want to pay £200 plus for a model, which then falls to bits as soon as it used roughly, or even simply played with.

 

Even worse for the makers and retailers anything priced in that Top range then  simply does'nt sell until the prices are reduced.

 

Many people will not touch secondhand on anything. Why? they have no idea how to mend anything broken , they simply bin it as of when required.

 

 

Here's a name "Tri-ang", which, strangely enough, used to apply to a certain range of very successful, very rugged (they've survived me for the lat 60+ years), and very competitively priced model railway products which just happened to be made in a certain well-known factory in Margate.

 

The other reason that they don't try to repair stuff is the lack of spares.

[andyman7]

I agree about the appeal of earlier pre-China model railways, but I think it's also worth defending the improvements since then. Triang models can pretty much run forever and I cut my teeth repairing them but the need to build items down to a price meant that they were always compromised by lack of pickups and lack of weight. Comparison of a Triang or pre-China Hornby Margate item with a pre-China German loco such as Fleischmann or a pre-China US HO loco from Bachmann or Athearn reveals that those abroad had access to really superbly engineered rugged mechanisms that took a long time to find their way here.

As a child I was always frustrated that a Triang/Hornby/Lima model was so hard to accelerate or brake smoothly down to a stop - below a certain speed, a stall was almost inevitable.

What I have found I enjoy doing is taking some of these older UK locos and as part of detailing them I also fit them with extra weight and extra pickups and it is remarkable how much this can improve the running. I certainly enjoy their appeal but I am also glad that we do have some really great mechanisms in most modern models!

Edited September 7, 2024 by andyman7

[Peter Kazmierczak]

For "model railways", you could substitute a range of other goods - cars, TVs, washing machines, etc.,  that have changed since we were growing up from repairable things (by ourselves if we got the spare parts) to things we either throw away and replace, or get specialists to repair. 

[Michael Hodgson]

8 hours ago, andyman7 said:

 

As a child I was always frustrated that a Triang/Hornby/Lima model was so hard to accelerate or brake smoothly down to a stop - below a certain speed, a stall was almost inevitable.

 

That's down to the technology of the period - the standard of controllers was low - resistance mats did allow you to adjust the voltage, but stiction was always an issue at low speed resulting in "jackrabbit starts".  The inevitable dirt on the track meant that if a slow train did not have the momentum to carry on until it made contact again.   It was only when modern electronics could respond quickly enough to back EMF changes and provided on-board electrical momentum through stay-alive techniques  that more precise control became viable.  But it was what was available at the time, so we had to accept it.

 

Your disenchantment with unrealistic acceleration/deceleration characteristics is recognition of one aspect of why most modellers sought (and still seek) ever more accurate  models, whether that was in areas of performance, fine detail, other effeects like smoke, lights and sound.  That I think is the difference between models and toys.

[Michael Hodgson]

8 hours ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

For "model railways", you could substitute a range of other goods - cars, TVs, washing machines, etc.,  that have changed since we were growing up from repairable things (by ourselves if we got the spare parts) to things we either throw away and replace, or get specialists to repair. 

 

That of course accounts for a lot of the stuff that ends up in recycling bins.  We waste far too much good technology because of inablity to repair.   This is environmentally damaging and in the long term will deplete available scarce resources.  With newer technologies such as 3D printing and AI, there may come a time when it again becomes feasible to repair goods.  Can man design robots that do all that is involved in identiying the fault, designing and fabricating replacements parts and them fitting them?  If we are beginning to produce fully autonomous cars, we are clearly on the way to developing such technologies.  

 

If we get that far, I do wonder what that will do to our economic system - will there be any work for anybody to do?  If nobody is working, can our present finanical system survive?  Will we need to replace capitalism as we currently know it with something completely new?

[jjb1970]

I like classic model trains and there is something charming about old very rugged models that were basic but could run for what seemed like forever with little/no servicing. Especially the old metal stuff like Dublo and Wrenn.

 

On the other hand we shouldn't let affection cloud our assessment. Models today are made to standards of accuracy and fine detail which would have seemed impossible in mass produced RTR of the 60's and 70's. High end Japanese and Korean brass manufacturers were heading there in the 60's as were some HO manufacturers like Roco in the 70's but brass was very expensive and European HO a lot more than OO.

 

Similarly while modern mechanisms might require more careful handling than Dublo or Wrenn they are smooth, quiet and powerful and offer superb performance.

 

Looking more widely, things like cars may be less repairable but they don't need to be. At one time cars needed lots of attention, nowadays how many people need to do anymore than occasionally check sump oil between services? How many cars suffers bodywork corrosion? OK modern cars may be 'disposeable' in one sense but on average they'll give many years of service without needing to be mollycoddled by a mechanic.

 

So yes, I like a lot of old stuff (I have brass models built in the 70's that lose nothing to modern alternatives in detail and still run well) but as a rule things are much better today in terms of performance and reliability. 

[kevinlms]

39 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

That of course accounts for a lot of the stuff that ends up in recycling bins.  We waste far too much good technology because of inablity to repair.   This is environmentally damaging and in the long term will deplete available scarce resources.  With newer technologies such as 3D printing and AI, there may come a time when it again becomes feasible to repair goods.  Can man design robots that do all that is involved in identiying the fault, designing and fabricating replacements parts and them fitting them?  If we are beginning to produce fully autonomous cars, we are clearly on the way to developing such technologies.  

 

If we get that far, I do wonder what that will do to our economic system - will there be any work for anybody to do?  If nobody is working, can our present finanical system survive?  Will we need to replace capitalism as we currently know it with something completely new?

The problem of stuff ending up in the recycling bin, is primarily because the cost of new replacement items, has gone down significantly in real terms. TVs used to have a large percentage of them as rentals, because they did actually need and got repaired. Who would consider renting a TV these days - perhaps some do, but it's a very low proportion.

 

What about the XT computer, would anyone seriously consider repairs to the motherboard or recreating the RAM? No, such a computer is so far behind, it's just not worth it.

 

We have to get better at recycling, the problem is getting items, to a suitable centre and being able to break it down into relevant and useable components. Collecting it, filling many old containers and shipping it half way around the world, to countries that only have one attribute - the labour is cheap! But do they really recycle it, or just burn it when we are not looking? That practice does absolutely nothing for the climate, as we could have down that in the Western world.

 

 

But look at more expensive stuff, such as full size locomotives. In theory they could be repaired, but the electronics controlling them are vastly superceded and are simply not viable to repair. Earlier lots of debate about the Royal Mail EMU's.

 

I agree about much of what you said, many people won't have worthwhile jobs. As an example, Australia has no car plant of any manufacturer.

Even companies that assemble hamburgers, are building robots to do relatively low paying jobs, so even unskilled type jobs are disappearing. AI seems to be tackling high paid jobs now, such as re-writing legal documents.

 

I don't know what the future will bring, but until we get better at how we recycle old things, we'll all be buried in our waste.

[cypherman]

Hi all,

On a slightly different track we must not forget the even older H/D engines and the successors Wrenn. They tend to be bullet proof even in the hands of children. These are my latest 2 additions. I got them at a really good price on Ebay from a seller who I can only say that he went the extra mile and beyond to sort them out for me. I am not sure if I can post his Ebay page here. So I will not until some one says I can. 

The A4 Had a slight dent on one edge of the cab. That wes easily sorted and the black paint needed a little touching up. But they run wonderfully.

[Robin Brasher]

The Hornby Dublo models were very good. When Hornby's tender driven 9F came out it received excellent reviews in the model railway press, My R2016 9F 92001 dates from 1997.  It was out of action for a few years after the driving gear worked loose and my attempts to glue it back in place failed. Eventually I sent it off to be repaired for £25 and it is now running well,

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, Robin Brasher said:

The Hornby Dublo models were very good. When Hornby's tender driven 9F came out it received excellent reviews in the model railway press, 

 

That's because unlike contemporary locos it didn't have a cab full of magnet like the 8F and you could even see daylight under the boiler, a solution that wasn't possible with tank engines of course.

[cypherman]

11 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

The Hornby Dublo models were very good. When Hornby's tender driven 9F came out it received excellent reviews in the model railway press, My R2016 9F 92001 dates from 1997.  It was out of action for a few years after the driving gear worked loose and my attempts to glue it back in place failed. Eventually I sent it off to be repaired for £25 and it is now running well,

Hi all,

I had 3 of these locos. Plus 2 of the original Silver Seal 9F's. Unfortunately all 3 of the late 90's engines chassis developed severe mazak rot. I managed to buy 2 of the earlier chassis and retro fit the locos with them. The third was just scrapped.

[Robin Brasher]

In 1999 production of the 9Fs was moved to China but they still had tender drive. This may account for the mazak rot.

[cypherman]

2 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

In 1999 production of the 9Fs was moved to China but they still had tender drive. This may account for the mazak rot.

Hi Robin, That does not surprise me. One thing people should know if they have any of the late 90's 9F's with mazak rot. The older chassis is an almost perfect double. Just a bit of wiring to sort out and the back valvegear bracket to fit.

[CKPR]

On 08/09/2024 at 08:49, Michael Hodgson said:

 

If we get that far, I do wonder what that will do to our economic system - will there be any work for anybody to do?  If nobody is working, can our present finanical system survive?  Will we need to replace capitalism as we currently know it with something completely new?

Sounds like the idea of post-scarcity anarchism / communism ?! It's predicated on exactly what you describe, essentially 'bootstrapping' technologies that can replicate and repair themselves, and has been discussed for the past 50-60 years by people such as the late Murray Bookhin and various SF writer. The 'Culture' SF novels by Iain M. Banks are based on just such a premise, albeit on a galactic scale ! Interestingly, given unlimited resources and freed from economic activity, many people in the Culture either go on holiday on vast cruise spaceships or do arts and hobbies.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On 01/09/2024 at 22:15, KTM said:

I have experienced and fully appreciate the detail and running qualities of the current generation of models but there is something about them that doesn't sit comfortably with me.  I've always looked upon model trains as long term prospects and note the short production life and spares availabilty associated with the fast-moving technology of the latest models all points to a limited operational life.  In comparison, the unfashionable Triang/Hornby rationalised approach and common use of parts supports a much longer service life. 

I operate intensively - it's the reason I have a model railway - and had dropped RTR OO by 1970 for the superior results obtained by kit building in 4mm, which not only performed more realistically, but had greater longevity than RTR OO of the time which quickly wore out the chassis blocks, wheels and gears. 

 

When the HO technique based steam product from China emerged in the 1990s I gave it a good work out and the Bachmann split chassis mechanisms in tender locos lasted six years at best, until all the conductive plating wore away and vital plastic components were degrading and failing. I was not alone in finding this rapid wear out among those that run their model trains.  (The Mabuchi can motors all salvaged and many redeployed as project fodder, no failures yet.)

The first of the centre motor twin bogie mechanisms from Bachmann carrying a  Peak body shell have proved solidly bombproof, no maintenance required in 32 years. (These enable staging of  superb loco into nuclear flask events among other things, and with their weight and a scale speed exceeding 400mph, are apt to inflict pain in the event of careless operator body positioning.)

 

Subsequent twin bogie traction and the following much  superior steam product with wiper pick up, has easily matched the longevity of kit built mechanisms, despite many being loaded with extra weight for traction, the earliest examples now 25 years in service and performing as well as ever. Spectacular collision potential is rather more limited due to gear ratio choices oriented to scale maximum speed, although the DCC track supply is specified up to 22V which enables more rapid motion: I have gone to a nominal 16V on my layout for the purpose of making some RTR OO 'slugs' achieve scale maximum speed, with no ill effect in the fifteen years since this was adopted.

 

In collision parts fly off very realistically, solvent cements rectify, if that's what is required - not my thing at all, realistically safe and reliable operation is my goal - but friends with young have been known to go in for 'the race to the diamond crossing' and the like. I have also had two locos owned by friends in for repair after classic 'free fall to the floor' events, and both were restorable with no spares required; Hornby's 2006 loco drive Britannia, Heljan's class 16, both externally slightly battered (as so often seen on BR) yet still running well.