Presenting TGV 4405

[NGT6 1315]

Morning ...

 

Been meaning to write about this for a while now, but did not get around to it for a variety of reasons. Well, then, here we go .

 

One of the positive things about Hornby having resurrected the well-known French producer of H0 scale SNCF models, Jouef, is that fans of the French railways now have access to good TGV models once again. As of now, Jouef have put the following sets back on the market:

 

* TGV PSE - the first generation sets used on the original Paris-Lyon service, but now found on a variety of other services outside the LGV Sud-Est. Jouef's model represents a dual voltage PSE set in original condition and the well-known orange livery.

 

* TGV Duplex - the bi-level variant primarily used on services to Marseille,

 

* TGV R?©seau-Duplex - these sets having been created by combining R?©seau power units with newly built bi-level carriages after the original single level ones had been refurbished and made into the new POS sets,

 

* and the TGV POS, which I just mentioned .

 

Anyway, last summer I decided to have a go and get one of those POS sets - this, of course, having to do with the fact that they operate not only in France, but also in Germany and Switzerland. I initially hoped for Lima or Jouef to re-release the Thalys PBKA sets which also operate in Germany, but for reasons unknown to me Lima only ever put the basic sets with the power units and end trailers back in production - meaning I would never have got beyond a two trailer set which, of course, would have been wildly unrealistic. I know Mehano have also done the PBKA type, but my impressions of that one have been, and still are, mixed.

 

So, here we go with the images .

 

 

 

Putting a trainset as long as this one on display does mean a certain challenge - the set being almost 2.3 metres long. But an impressive sight it certainly is, and very visually appealing, too, what with the silver and blue livery and the ornaments around the door areas on the trailers. These colours do lend themselves rather well for use on high speed trains. As I mentioned before, the POS sets - the abbreviation meaning "Paris-Ostfrankreich-S??ddeutschland", though I have also read about these sets being referred to as "Est-Europ?©en" - were created by combining newly built power units, derived from the PBKA and Duplex ones, with trailers taken from former R?©seau sets, which were thoroughly refurbished on this occasion. As a novelty, the POS power units are fitted with asynchronous three-phase motors rather than the synchronous ones preferred by the French locomotive builders until then. They have a power output of 9,280 kW under 25 kV/50 Hz AC, and of 6,880 kW under 15 kV/16.7 Hz AC and 1.5 kV DC - considerably more than the PBKA power units which have 8,800 kW under 25 kV, 4,460 kW under 15 kV, and 3,680 kW under 3 and 1.5 kV DC. In addition, the POS power units as well as the end trailers were fitted with electromagnetic brakes, which are required for speeds in excess of 140 kph on conventionally signalled lines in Germany. The POS sets have a top speed of 320 kph (199 mph) and are 200.9 metres long.

 

The V150 set which clocked the 574.8 kph/357 mph world speed record on 3 April 2007 was composed of the two power units of POS set 4402 and three specially modified bi-level trailers whose bogies were powered as well.

 

 

 

 

Profile view of a TGV POS power unit - the model representing set 4405, the SNCF designation for this TGV type being class 384000. Set 4406 has been sold to the Swiss Federal Railways, by the way, and carries "SBB CFF FFS" inscriptions and a SBB double arrow and cross logo on the sides of the power units. Painting and lettering are very well done, though the windshield and side wndows - which I should add are rather strongly tinted on the real thing - are not transparent. The POS sets can be run in multiples of two, including mixed formations with the R?©seau and Duplex types. However, the German authorities have yet to certify double units, the trials for which are currently under way. Of course, R?©seau and Duplex sets cannot operate into Germany as they have neither 15 kV capability nor the German train protection systems.

 

 

 

 

Presenting all eight trailers may be a bit overdone, so I'll just highlight one of each type. This here is the 1st class end trailer which, however, also houses a small 2nd class bicycle compartment for four bikes. As you can see, the windows are transparent on the trailers. The Jacobs bogies have been faithfully reproduced on this model and include an extension mechanism for smooth curve running.

 

 

 

One of the 1st class intermediate trailers. Looking closely you will be able to spot the insulators for the busbar which connects the two power units on all TGV sets, except for the TMST. This busbar, however, is only suitable for AC, meaning all TGV sets must run with both pans up under DC power - which, of course, is necessary anyway due to the high currents occurring under DC power.

 

 

 

The bar trailer which houses a bistro.

 

 

 

 

And a 2nd class intermediate trailer. Again, I like the livery a lot, as it conveys both elegance, speed and, well, something like freshness perhaps. As a matter of fact, I do think it shares not only the general idea, but indeed several components with the very nice "en voyage" livery which has been applied to several SNCF locomotives.

 

 

 

The 2nd class end trailer. On the PSE, Postal and TMST sets the outer bogies on these end trailers are powered as well (the real ones, of course - on the model, only one of the two power units is actually powered) which had to do with the fact that when the PSE and Postal (the latter being rebuilds from PSE sets) were developed only eight powered wheelsets would have been insufficient. On the other hand, the TMST is almost 400 metres long, which is why these sets also have six powered bogies rather than four - this, of course, also taking into account the generally low power output while operating from 750 V DC in the southeastern UK.

 

 

 

Detail view of the other - unpowered - power unit from above. As is the case on all TGV types, two pantographs are present, these being from Faiveley. The inner pans with the 1,450 mm head are meant for the French and Swiss AC overhead lines, while the outer ones with the 1,950 mm heads are for the German 15 kV AC lines as well as the French 1.5 kV DC OHLE. On my model, however, the pantographs on both power units were mounted incorrectly - the narrow pans being outside. This, of course, required some work. As I soon found it to be too risky to detach the body from the chassis - these being a very tight fit - without causing permanent damage I went for just swapping the pantograph heads - this being a very fiddly job . I do not know whether all Jouef POS sets were fitted such at the factory, but it is one point to have a look at if you should want to get one of these sets as well.

 

 

 

And, finally, a look at the coupler end of the end trailer. As you will probably know, on the real thing the power units are coupled to the rake of trailers with normal buffers and UIC couplers. The coupler on the model looks a bit like the Roco close coupler heads, but is not compatible with the latter.

 

For further reference - the Jouef TGV POS is split across three sets. Item HJ2019 contains the power units and end trailers, and sets HJ4022 and HJ4023 three of the intermediate trailers each.

 

In my view, the set is well worth getting if you have even a remote interest in H0 scale high speed trains. I admit I also turned my eye to the TGV Postal which Jouef have announced for future release, but as neither a release date nor recommended prices have been announced so far I prefer to wait until I have these two pieces of information. If I should, in fact, get one of these sets I will present it on here, of course .

 

 

 

[70000 Britannia]

.. last summer I decided to have a go and get one of those POS sets - this, of course, having to do with the fact that they operate not only in France, but also in Germany and Switzerland.

 

Looks a very stylish set - the blue bodyside colour is clean and disctinctive.

 

The V150 set which clocked the 574.8 kph/357 mph world speed record on 3 April 2007 was composed of the two power units of POS set 4402 and three specially modified bi-level trailers whose bogies were powered as well.

 

That's cheating - typical of the French to do anything to have the fastest train - and overly unprototypical! OBB should have bolted on a rolls-royce jet engine with their 1216 - rather than just unscrew the plough of the front .

[NGT6 1315]

That's cheating - typical of the French to do anything to have the fastest train - and overly unprototypical! OBB should have bolted on a rolls-royce jet engine with their 1216 - rather than just unscrew the plough of the front .

 

 

Perhaps so . However, the 574 kph run also served to test a new type of powered bogie and synchronous AC motors with permanent magnets meant to be used on the AGV - which basically is a TGV with distributed power, much like the ICE 3. I also could imagine it must have been fun and indeed exciting to be driving a train with all of 19,800 kW of installed power .

 

Actually, Jouef have also done the speed record set (called V150) in H0 scale, though only as a limited edition which I think has mostly sold out.

[eastwestdivide]

Morning ...

 

.... On the other hand, the TMST is almost 400 metres long, which is why these sets also have six powered bogies rather than four - this, of course, also taking into account the generally low power output while operating from 750 V DC in the southeastern UK.

You can hear a '######' noise as the conductor rails expand and contract when something pulls a heavy electrical load, such as a Eurostar, or in earlier days 2x Class 73s on a loaded coal train.

 

Edit: the filter won't let me write c-h-i-n-k, which is exactly the noise that I want to express. Some of my best friends are Chinese etc etc.

[NGT6 1315]

You can hear a '######' noise as the conductor rails expand and contract when something pulls a heavy electrical load, such as a Eurostar, or in earlier days 2x Class 73s on a loaded coal train.

 

Edit: the filter won't let me write c-h-i-n-k, which is exactly the noise that I want to express. Some of my best friends are Chinese etc etc.

 

 

Haven't travelled the UK 3rd rail network yet, but I heard similar noises on the Nuremberg and Munich undergrounds which also operate on 3rd rail. I always thought it to have something to do with the shoes reconnecting to the conductor rail after a gap, but now I'm not so sure any more. Of course, a subway probably draws significantly less power than a Eurostar set.

[eastwestdivide]

Haven't travelled the UK 3rd rail network yet, but I heard similar noises on the Nuremberg and Munich undergrounds which also operate on 3rd rail. I always thought it to have something to do with the shoes reconnecting to the conductor rail after a gap, but now I'm not so sure any more. Of course, a subway probably draws significantly less power than a Eurostar set.

Probably there is a longer distance between the conductor shoes at front and rear of a train than the distance of a gap, so I should think the noise is due to drawing power. Even if it's less than a Eurostar, there's a lot of current needed to move 100s of tons of train, and there must be heat generated there. Going off-topic I know...

[NGT6 1315]

Probably there is a longer distance between the conductor shoes at front and rear of a train than the distance of a gap, so I should think the noise is due to drawing power. Even if it's less than a Eurostar, there's a lot of current needed to move 100s of tons of train, and there must be heat generated there. Going off-topic I know...

 

 

I'm not sure if I could prove a link between these "clinking" noises I was referring to and power applications - in my memory, these sounds also occurred while the train was cruising along and thus drawing much less power than while accelerating.

[samkiller42]

Excellent, some very usefull information there. Hopefully you will get yourself a Duplex and provide another excellent review.

 

Cheers

 

Sam

[NGT6 1315]

Excellent, some very usefull information there. Hopefully you will get yourself a Duplex and provide another excellent review.

 

 

I just checked earlier this evening and it would seem the Duplex is about to be sold out as well. However, the R?©seau-Duplex seems to be available. But as I said, if I had to choose I believe I would prefer the TGV Postal - or a refurbished PSE set, preferably one of those with additional 15 kV capability for Switzerland, but Jouef haven't done one of these yet.

[Ravenser]

One reason for the extra shoes may be to have enough in contact where there are gaps in the conductor rail. I remember before the Tunnel opened hearing it said that the French design engineers were having problems designing the things so they could get through Ashford without stalling - there were so many conductor rail gaps in the station area that someone had calculated the train would be on power for just 19 seconds in the Ashford area . As far as I can recall the argument was that the train could not draw power while there was a gap anywhere under it , since if it pulled in 750V from a limited number of shoes , the current flow would be so great that arcing would probably weld the remaining shoes to the conductor rail! (The consequences for train services in Kent of welding a Eurostar to the rails in Ashford would have been pretty serious..)

 

What you are describing as TGV Duplex (the double deckers) seem to be branded as TGV Lyra in the SNCF public timetables , and certainly run into Switzerland as well as destinations on TGV Sud Est. I travelled on TGV Lyra stock from Paris Lyon to Geneva Cornavin and back a few years ago. The livery is the same as your Est set

 

From a more narrowly British perspective, the sets used on LGV Nord are TGV Reseau and Thalys , so if you wanted to model some part of the London/Paris main line , these and a Eurostar would be the signature items. Which location on the route would be the easiest (or least unmodelable) is an interesting question. Calais - Frethun (ie the area immediately beyond the French portal) might be a candidate. However I suspect it would have to be in N - the high speed sets are all frighteningly long in HO or 4mm

[samkiller42]

Haha, TGV's are simply incredible machines. Do you have a layout to sit and watch them go round and round?

 

Sam

[Ravenser]

I've yet to see a foreign HST in 4 mm scale though Although it's the dominant scale in the UK, frankly, you're weird (no offense!) to us Continentals

 

I was commenting in the context of modelling the Paris /London high speed main line. Or even parts of the old route on this side . If you decided to choose Ebbsfleet (say) , I don't think HO is an option. If you model Calais - what do you do about the 92s, which aren't available in HO? And whether its a 4mm Eurostar or an HO one its still terrifyingly long as a model . That might force you into N in any case. There's still a difference in scale between British N and Continental N, buyt its much less and in the context of the Kato Eurostar there seems to be a polite agreement to ignore the issue.

 

Turned another way - under what circumstances and on what layout can you run a sensible looking TGV or Eurostar in either HO or 4mm?

[NGT6 1315]

Yeah, I, too have been wondering how you could possibly fit a full 18 carriage H0 scale Eurostar onto any layout . It would look awesome without any doubt, but I don't think there are that many layouts actually large enough for trains like this one. That being said, I did think about getting a full Eurostar set, should it ever be put back in production, though before I were to do so I would have to check where I might actually display it!

 

 

What you are describing as TGV Duplex (the double deckers) seem to be branded as TGV Lyra in the SNCF public timetables , and certainly run into Switzerland as well as destinations on TGV Sud Est. I travelled on TGV Lyra stock from Paris Lyon to Geneva Cornavin and back a few years ago. The livery is the same as your Est set

 

 

Was it really a Duplex set? The only TGV sets I know to have been inscribed with the Lyria brand were several PSE ones, but this may well have changed by now. Interestingly, Geneva can, to my knowledge, be reached from the French side under 1.5 kV DC, so no specially fitted sets are required for services terminating there.

[Pacific231G]

Turned another way - under what circumstances and on what layout can you run a sensible looking TGV or Eurostar in either HO or 4mm?

 

Eurostars a bit limited though they could in principle find their way up single track lines to the ski resorts and SNCF do have a number of Eurostar sets in domestic TGV service carrying SNCF logos (Rather as GNER used to use them on the ECML)

 

TGVs are a bit simpler as they don't just run on LGVs (high speed lines) and most of their route length is actually on lignes classiques (conventional main lines). I've seen single eight car sets in relatively small stations such as Arcachon and even on the end of the single track branch to Les Sables d'Olonne. That was a real prototype for everything situation and caused me a definite double take. I saw a TGV set sitting in the main platform under the wire with its pans up but then realised that the branch was unelectrified and even had mechanical signalling. They'd actually built a short length of catenary just to power the train's services (aircon and so on) while it was in the terminus but it was hauled to and from the main line by a 72000 diesel loco fitted with modified Scharfenberg couplings that could also supply 1.5kV DC electricity for the train's services and dynamic brakes. (there's a page of pictures of this weird situation on http://www.railfaneu...Vendee/pix.html )

The line from la Roche to Les Sables has now been electrified so the TGVs (and TERs) can get there by themselves but it's probably a lot less interesting.

I do think that ability for TGVs to travel on the rest of the electrified network is one of the several big advantages that high speed trains based on railway technology have over things like Maglev or monorails (points are another one)

 

David

[Ravenser]

Yeah, I, too have been wondering how you could possibly fit a full 18 carriage H0 scale Eurostar onto any layout . It would look awesome without any doubt, but I don't think there are that many layouts actually large enough for trains like this one. That being said, I did think about getting a full Eurostar set, should it ever be put back in production, though before I were to do so I would have to check where I might actually display it!

 

 

 

 

 

Was it really a Duplex set? The only TGV sets I know to have been inscribed with the Lyria brand were several PSE ones, but this may well have changed by now. Interestingly, Geneva can, to my knowledge, be reached from the French side under 1.5 kV DC, so no specially fitted sets are required for services terminating there.

 

I was upstairs, so I'm pretty sure of this. And it was certainly headlined "TGV Lyra" on the SNCF printed timetables and I think on the departure boards

[NGT6 1315]

I was upstairs, so I'm pretty sure of this. And it was certainly headlined "TGV Lyra" on the SNCF printed timetables and I think on the departure boards

 

 

Alright . I was not completely sure whether I had correctly understood on which TGV type you were travelling at that time.

[The Stationmaster]

One reason for the extra shoes may be to have enough in contact where there are gaps in the conductor rail. I remember before the Tunnel opened hearing it said that the French design engineers were having problems designing the things so they could get through Ashford without stalling - there were so many conductor rail gaps in the station area that someone had calculated the train would be on power for just 19 seconds in the Ashford area . As far as I can recall the argument was that the train could not draw power while there was a gap anywhere under it , since if it pulled in 750V from a limited number of shoes , the current flow would be so great that arcing would probably weld the remaining shoes to the conductor rail! (The consequences for train services in Kent of welding a Eurostar to the rails in Ashford would have been pretty serious..)

 

A bit off subject I know but the above comment rather puzzled me - apart from the number of gaps around Ashford. Firstly there aere (were) no 'extra shoes' on a TMST/Eurostar because thye can (or rather 'could') be no further apart or closer together than the distance between the bogies so any design impact would be to move the bogie centres, which would of course be controlled by the vehicle length (or add shoes other than on the bogies).

 

It is easy enough to tell as a passenger on Eursostar when the part of the train you are in ceases to draw power as the aircon turns off and that happened quite a bit on the 3rd rail. Just like any 3rd rail vehicle picking up from just two places fairly close together a powered veicle in a Eurostar is bound to have one or other shoe out of contact with the 3rd rail many times when it comes to pointwork.But as far as the train was concerned in most instances when one end (or power vehicle) lost power the other end usually had power so there was not much effect on traction as that, plus the impetus of the train, just kept it going. And of course in any case the current draw on 3rd rail was limited although that was partially for interference reasons but mainly for power supply reasons.

 

The situation with a Class 92 working an ENS train would however have been fairly horrendous between London and the Tunnel as there were a total of 72 locations were no shoes would have been in contact with the 3rd rail - and that would have meant big trouble with some of the on-train electronics.

[LSWR]

Turned another way - under what circumstances and on what layout can you run a sensible looking TGV or Eurostar in either HO or 4mm?

 

I have in my collection an original full length Jouef TGV Atlantique (2 power cars plus 10 intermediate carriages) which I ran on my now defunct club's 20ft by 38ft modular layout at model railroad shows here in New England. Thanks to a large layout, 3ft minimum radius curves and Jouef's overscale wheel profile I could crank the train up to prototype speeds (185 HO scale miles per hour; I timed it). That got everybodies attention. I also have two complete Lima TGV Sud-Est train set (2 + 8) that I set up to chase each other. The Lima InterCity Swallow and Blue-Grey IC125 sets (also 2 + 8) I have couldn't be said to go quite as fast because in OO at 4mm to the foot a scale mile is longer than in HO at 3.5mm to the foot! In all cases I found that one powered power car could do as well as two powered power cars. All were unmodified with the exception of the Lima powered units to which I had added pickups to the unpowered bogie.

[Jon Gwinnett]

Finally managed to get the last cars to complete my TGV Duplex today (alright, I cheated, the bar/resto is from a Rame 600 set, but who'll know ).

 

All I need now is to convert the loft into the Corniche d'or and Cap Esterel

[Mike at C&M]

Finally managed to get the last cars to complete my TGV Duplex today (alright, I cheated, the bar/resto is from a Rame 600 set, but who'll know ).

 

 

Jon,

I won't tell anyone.

 

Mike from C&M

[Jon Gwinnett]

Caught

 

Didn't realise you were on here. Very pleased with it. Have several tonnes of foam board ready in the loft!

[Jon Gwinnett]

With apologies for hijacking, here's the Duplex beastie in all its glory:

[Jon Gwinnett]

yep - fixed distance coupling (off the bogie on the power cars).

 

its the only major let down on the model for me. (I'm not an expert on the real things.)

 

The power car coupling is screwed on too, so no chance of an NEM replacement.

 

Think the only solution will be a bespoke device once the layout (and thus the severity of curves) has been finalised.

[Jon Gwinnett]

Dank! Dutch_Master.

 

Hadn't seen their stuff before.

 

I think you're right, and the 107 box might also be useful.

 

Cheers,

 

Jon

[Jon Gwinnett]

Hah, yes, little island off the north coast of Europe. I do read (badly) Loco Revue, but my franglais isn't really up to it!

 

Ok, will try to unpick the beast and take some photos. Won't be today though, assorted birthday parties to ferry small person to!

 

The power car weighs a ton - its not the trainset version and appears to have plenty of grunt. It's too powerful for my wee boy's oval of track - the power car tanks the unit round fast enough to spread the track joints. Its better when propelling - thosoe dodgy couplers don't hold things together too well when pulling, but it certainly shifts. Haven't timed it yet - not enough track!

 

If i ever get a layout to run it, it'll be a ligne classique, so top end speed won't be such an issue fortunately