alangr Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Having raised issues in the thread started by TTG, I am starting this thread as a follow on to my earlier queries. I am now running the Gold software (demo mode and offline) and have created some initial track plans - now sent to TTG off forum. Even if, as I begin to suspect, I now move to block occupancy instead of using momentary sensors as originally planned, though, I am still left wondering just how a block ever gets released. For an engine OK, the current draw drops off on exit. But will it be necessary, for example, for each wagon/carriage that might ever be a 'tail-end charlie' to have a resistor across its wheels in order to ensure that all works as intended? Or is the answer still a flagman set up with a momentary contact on exit? Or both, even... I am beginning to feel that I am being somewhat lazy here in asking all this and perhaps I should read more before asking - but its trying to make sense of a stream of information before jumping in that is getting to me! So apologies all. That said, any comments would be very welcome! Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 To detect any part of the train occupying a particular block, you need enough resistance wheelsets for at least one of them to be within the shortest block you have. This probably means at least one on every vehicle - and sometimes with uncompensated chassis on uneven track the actual wheel lifts off so they aren't 100% reliable. I have fitted resistance axles to each item of stock, two for longer vehicles and also fit both axles nearest the end of a fixed rake. I have also set up a flagman for each track circuit, which goes to occupied at the same time as the block detector but does not clear until the detector has been reporting clear for five seconds. All the interlocking logic which depends on this track circuit is driven via this flagman not via the actual detector. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john dew Posted November 7, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 7, 2009 I suspect I may eventually have to follow Edwin_Ms route with resistors on the axles but right now I am still building the layout and practising with RR&Co by creating automatic coupling/uncoupling routines and I find my trains (albeit short right now) clear the blocks without the need for current draw in addition to the engine. The default schedule rule regarding clearing/releasing blocks is when the train reaches the stop marker in the next block......now with long trains and short blocks there could be an issue but RR&Co has so many different ways of dealing with issues this could be resolved by changing the schedule rules or using flagmen and/or virtual contacts Congratulations on downloading Gold.......have fun Regards from Vancouver where it is no longer damp.....just very wet! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 I think we may be getting a bit confused with terminology. To Freiwald a "block" is a section of track which has one or more "block detectors" these being the physical devices that detect the presence of the trains. My reply above was in relation to making sure that the train shows up on the detectors, as it would with a prototype track circuit, as I'm trying to make my RR&Co setup as much like a prototype VDU signalbox as possible. John's suggestion is that even if the tail of the train isn't fitted with resistors the software will protect it against conflicting movements, becuase it "knows" the lengths of all the blocks and all the trains. I've not got far enough into RR&Co to have tried anything like this! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard brown Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 I believe with gold you don't need to put resistor on you stock as you can set the train length and the coaches/ rolling stock you just need to set your train up so RR&Co know how fast everything is going. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 I suppose my experience is coloured by using Rapido couplings which tend to uncouple at random intervals. As and when I replace them with something more reliable I may be able to do without the resistors. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alangr Posted November 8, 2009 Author Share Posted November 8, 2009 I am not sure about being able to set train lengths, etc. in Gold but will try to see what I can find on that - it could certainly be a viable idea as the software will know about the speed of the train and so be should able to deal with block exit. John; the bit about 'reaching the stop marker in the next block' is all very fine for a known route. But what happens if a train is moving and it is the software that chooses the 'best' route depending on what other movements are in progress? In such a situation there can be no such thing as a known route and so no known 'next block', only start and destination blocks. This is unless the doftware is really clever, of course. When choosing an (optimal) route for a train, the software must know what train it is sending where - so all should be well with using the stop marker as above. The more I think about this the more sense it seems to make. My frustration is being in the middle of scenery building (lots of plasterwork) and not being able to try things out in real life. Still, it will come... And automatic uncoupling routines in RR&Co? How is that done, I wonder. Is it a series of schedules? Or what...? I ask as I am also converting to using Kaydee couplings/magnets so that I can achieve something along the lines of what you are doing. BTW I have just been through your Granby Junction thread; great stuff and lots of good work - makes me feel really incompetant! Regards from a humid Athens. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john dew Posted November 8, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 8, 2009 Hi Alan I havent done any random scheduling yet my test schedules are quite specific. I guess the solution is to establish how many variations there are and set up the rules accordingly......one of the most useful tools are "schedule specific block/route properties" but to use them with random blocks/routes you would have to work out all the alternatives But in any event dont forget that even though the blocks/route may not be known to you it is to TC so setting up the shedule release rules to default would still apply ie whatever block TC selected that block would not be released until the train reached the stop marker in the next block TC selected. For greater certainty "reaching" does not mean stopping. Using an Occupancy detector TC knows the moment a train enters a block, it know how many inches the stop marker is from the entrance to the block.....it knows the speed (assuming the loco has been profiled) so it knows the moment the loco passes the stop marker and it is then that it releases the previous block. There are a number of variations on the schedule rules......you may want to look at the options under train length for example. The critical block rule is also worth looking at....I havent used it yet but I can see its potential. As you will have gathered from my threads here and in RR&Co my main focus has been setting up Uncoupling routines. Occasionally frustrating but totally brilliant when the routine is finally established and you sure learn a lot about the different techniques you can use. You have to use a combination of short schedules and some defined operations at the start or finish of a schedule for example I have a run around routine : S1 Train moves thru several blocks, enters station block and stops at a stop marker at the end of the block that is placed so that the coupling of the loco will be immediately over the uncoupling magnet. Operation* at end of schedule S1 loco jerks back momentarily and thus uncouples S2 Released loco moves forward to next block at end of station and stops at entrance to block clearing Xover points S3 Xover points are set to loop Loco reverses along loop clears Xover points at far end and stops at end of station entrance block S4 Xover points are set back to normal and loco edges down station stopping at a second stop marker in the station block which is situated so the front of the loco will stop 1/2" beyond the separated carriages ie the loco runs into the carriages at very low speed automatically couples and stops.............very prototypical and very satisfying.....and already to go to the terminus *Operation DELAY 2.0 sec (passengers get out!) REVERSE SPEED 9 mph DELAY .08 sec STOP I hadnt intended this to be a tutorial but once started its difficult to stop! This routine demonstrates some of the fundamentals of TC.....eg there are 2 stop markers (and brake ramps) in the station block but there is a condition attached to the coupling stop marker namely it only applies to S4 similarly the stop markers used to clear the Xover points only apply to the appropriate schedules. You can use schedule specific Block Properties to control the speed. You can and should build in various delays at the start and finish of the schedules to replicate passengers unloading, uncoupling and more importantly allowing the points to be set. There are some constraints obviously......the carriage lengths should be more or less the same....I use a dedicated B Set.....you can and I do use different locos 57xx and a small Prairie but they have to be very accurately profiled I have another more complex schedule at the terminus where the B Set arrives Loco 1 uncouples and Loco 2 comes from a spur and couples. So you have 2 locos and a separated train set in the same block......this took a while to accomplish believe me But it works.....quite amazing......its so accurate that I am regreting the configuration of the storage yards in Granby as they are based mostly on a conventional Tail Chaser whereas now I believe I can do quite complex out and back scenarios which are much more realistic. Thank you for your kind words about Granby.....the thread is somewhat neglected whilst I sort out whether to start a topic or a blog.....thats todays project Regards from Vancouver where it is........still.......raining Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alangr Posted November 10, 2009 Author Share Posted November 10, 2009 Hi John Thanks for your detailed reply - even if it did turn out to be a tutorial! The general idea about block release is slowly coming clear to me - thanks for your input on this, it all helps. And I think that I can begin to see some of the issues relating to runs of points (many such close together). But it is the shunting antics that are really getting me going! To be able to do what you describe will make the whole thing fascinating and quite something to see when added to the actual passage of trains. I think that I need to start mixing business (sceinic plaster) and pleasure (getting RR&Co going) otherwise I shall get even moew frustrated than I am at present. That means getting on with getting a laptop (Windows 7...) to take downstairs (the layout is in the basement) and also getting the LenzLIUSB link - as well as paying for the software, of course. Then at least I will be able to speak sensibly about what I am actually doing! It is all very unfortunate as I kept (well, tried to keep, at least) everything so clean while I did the wood work and laid the track but with plaster dust gertting everywhere for the past few months I will need to take everything out of the room once the plastering is 'finished' and have a very (very) good clean up. Then, with some occupancy detectors installed as well as some momentary contacts..... BTW, I had not said that I have now seen the error of my ways, both in operational terms and financially! In my haste/ignorance, I had blithly taken an RS16 unit to be equivalent to two RS8 units! Having discovered the error of my ways, I can see that using RS8s will be cheaper, better (they have a reference voltage check built in) and more compact (equivalent to three Lenz units - deetector, feedfack and voltage check units). So I need to get cracking on clearing out my bank account; then I can start to do things. But at least I am now set on block occupancy with two contact indicators per block so I can install them as I do the cleaning...that is the theory, at least. So it may be a while before I am back here but all the best with Granby and your rain - we now have blue sky and sun in Athens ...for a while at least. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I used RS8s too, with one exception see below. However if I was doing it again I would consider RS16s connected to a homebrew detection circuit, something like that suggested by Dagworth or one of the MERG kits, all discussed in the link below: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/1889-is-there-a-simple-track-occupancy-circuit-for-dcc/ This would probably be cheaper than using RS8s, as a single RS8 costs more than a RS16 and only has half the inputs. However it does need more wiring. My exception is the reverser section, where I would have had to use up half a RS8 despite only needing one detection section. Here I have fed a RS16 via a Lenz LB101 unit (I will probably use the other RS16 inputs for something else later). However to make this work properly I had to use a smoothed DC supply and put a capacitor across the RS16 inputs - otherwise the RS16 seems to detect fluctuations in the supply as changes of occupancy status and sends messages the whole time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poindexter Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Sorry to hijack but, can someone point me to a link that will tell me the main differences between the various features on bronze silver and gold versions of RR%Co. It's just reading all these threads makes me want to download and play with a version. But when I look around the site I couldn't find a page that explained the differences. I thought it would be a waste to download gold trial if it was too feature rich for what I want (point control and simple automation). Cheers Guy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Digital Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Sorry to hijack but, can someone point me to a link that will tell me the main differences between the various features on bronze silver and gold versions of RR%Co. It's just reading all these threads makes me want to download and play with a version. But when I look around the site I couldn't find a page that explained the differences. I thought it would be a waste to download gold trial if it was too feature rich for what I want (point control and simple automation). Cheers Guy Guy, If you download the user manual the differences between Gold and Silver are explained on Page 13 http://www.freiwald.com/software/Manual.pdf John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john dew Posted November 10, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 10, 2009 Hi Alan But it is the shunting antics that are really getting me going! To be able to do what you describe will make the whole thing fascinating and quite something to see when added to the actual passage of trains. I think that I need to start mixing business (sceinic plaster) and pleasure (getting RR&Co going) otherwise I shall get even moew frustrated than I am at present. I am glad I was able to pass on some of my enthusiasm.....it really does add a different dimension to operating But at least I am now set on block occupancy with two contact indicators per block so I can install them as I do the cleaning...that is the theory, at least. I got confused here .........I thought you were going for occupan cy detectors rather than contact indicators, assuming that is so, are you convinced that you need two per block? With the new improvements to Gold I have found I can do everything I want with just one per block...........and a useful saving of cash and wiring Thanks for the good wishes......I am envious of your blue skies it always seems to rain in Vancouver in November (and many other months for that matter) so I dont know why I bother to report it!. Actually its dry for the next hour or so....the weather forecasters got quite excited last night. Kind Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poindexter Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Guy, If you download the user manual the differences between Gold and Silver are explained on Page 13 http://www.freiwald....ware/Manual.pdf John Thanks John. First rule RTFM!! Ishould of known. Guy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted November 10, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 10, 2009 Thanks John. First rule RTFM!! Ishould of known. Guy Hang on - real men don't read manuals Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alangr Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 As far as manuals go it was really necessary, for me - whatever that makes me! - to get the basic differences between the three versions of RR&Co before jumping off. A quick scan (OK, a long read) soon outlined the basic nature of the Bronze version and the many goodies included in the Gold version. Edwin_m; yes, the RS16 is cheaper than the RS8 but look at what you get: there is detection, feedback and a reference supply to allow momentary breaks in drawing current to be ignored (that's the RS8) whereas the RS16 only does feedback. In Lenz terms, one RS8 is a LR101+LB101+LB050. But the main thing for me is just getting a single unit. All the posts I have seen seem to say that the unit works well and it is only a single wire change (I am mostly wired up already) together with a track cut. John; now it is me who is somewhat confused! Yes, I am going for block occupancy with LDT RS8s. But my (maybe limited) understanding is that the optimal setup is block occupancy with two further contact indicators for the stop/brake points (one for each direction of travel). I suppose that you are referring to pages 164-166 of the Gold manual which describes shifted brake and stop markers - is that right? If so, does a single occupancy detector work well with such markers? I realise that by having two contact indicators as well I was taking a belt and braces approach but other functions can also be tied in to such markers and I may well want to use this facility (whistle/horn /other action) and I am not sure if this can be done with shifted markers. So I thought it would be safest. I would be very interested to hear of your experience here. Still blue sky here - but the weather is 'not what it used to be' say the locals. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john dew Posted November 12, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 12, 2009 Hi Alan I only have one occupancy sensor per block..............and it can control any number of 'shifted' stop markers in a block. Typically I have one for each direction of travel situated at at the ends of each block........you determine the exact location by the distance you insert from the start of the block (if the block is one way then obviously I only have one end of block marker)...............if the block is in a station you will have an additional stop marker checked for scheduled stops only.....ie so the train stops in the required position. I have additional stop markers inserted to stop the loco where I want it to for uncoupling/coupling routines.........their activation is controlled by a condition specifying specific schedules. You can also get a loco to stop or perform other operations by siting a virtual occupancy indicator in a block which is triggered by the loco entering the preceding block! In my experience (albeit limited) you only need 1 detector per block.....obviously your locos need to accurately profiled.....but thats a given. I have a feeling that all this is really possible only since the introduction of version 7 (Gold and possibly Silver). More experienced users than I with version 5.8 may still have their legacy occupancy/contact set up but I suspect it is now redundant. ps If you check the Speed Profiling pages you will see that the options are either two contact indicators or one occupancy indicator.....not combinations of the two pps Talking of profiling reminded me to suggest you read that section carefully before creating your blocks so you get the optimum set up Hope this helps Kind Regards The forecaster got it right...no rain and a sort of pale yellow (definitely not blue) sky Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alangr Posted November 13, 2009 Author Share Posted November 13, 2009 Hi John Thanks for being so helpful. I am reading about profiling (I had noted all this before but skipped the details) and am both somewhat clearer about profiling but not sure that I have yet seen the light about occupancy sensors vs contact indicators. Sure, to profile an engine you use one or the other - I get that; but I don't yet see the clarity about using one OS or two CIs (or more) or even a combination of these for operation. Also, do you use flagmen? I wonder if with just a single occupancy sensor per block there is still the capability to use them... That said, to be able to have 'any number of 'shifted' stop markers in a block' seems a good way to solve the problem - more reading needed here I think. All of the other operations you mention clearly stem from understanding these basic concepts - which are not quite so basic when diving into the manual by itself... You are quite right that I am trying to clear my mind about what needs to be done to implement RR&Co software optimally. As I have laid most of the track and will have to 'lift lids' to get at the hidden stuff, I am trying to settle my mind on what I need before making a major upheaval in the layout. At each turn I learn more but also discover that maybe all is not quite what I thought it was.... I have now ordered a Lenz LI-USB and an LDT RS8 so now for the laptop; then it will be a case of seeing if it will all work as intended with Windows 7...from posts in the RR&Co forum it seems that most people have had no problems and when I asked Lenz about their PC interface they said 'Some customer told me that it will work' - so it is really fingers crossed I guess! Thanks again for your help; we seem to have settled to sun and blue sky for a while now... Kind regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Hi Alan, Yes, profiling of your loco fleet is essential for successful automatic operation. If it is fudged it can result in some very annoying results and you will end up profiling things again in a fit of temper having realised that if it was done properly in the first place all would be well and certainly a lot of time saved. Looking at your posts some confusion still exists between contact indicators and block occupancy detectors. Well here goes, more confusion. Block occupancy detectors can be either contact type (reed switches, treadle type, momentary types of any kind, even optical) OR current sensing types. Just think of block occupancy detectors as any thing that tells the software that there is some thing on the track, that's it. What type it is does not matter as they are all block occupancy detectors. You are starting to realise that the current sensing type is by far the best type as it offers the maximum form of protection. It looks after a complete section of track irrespective of where the object is on the track providing it draws a current through a motor, resistive wheels sets or even if the object has lights. Contact types only monitor one spot, one position on a section of track. So any thing placed on the track other than directly over the contact sensor will not cause the block to show occupied. So there are problems straight away with this. In some cases depending on what type of contact sensor is used it may require the train to be moving as well for it to be effective. This as you can imagine is not ideal. Still with me, good. So as we all ready know the current sensing type like the RS8 or the Lenz combination of units that go to make up the RS8 are ideal for us Lenz users. There are other units out there which do the job equally well for other DCC systems. As for their use with regards RR&Co, brilliant. As John as said, V7 has made a big difference to the number of sensors per block against that needed in previous versions such as V5 etc. I have three per block as I have been using RR&CO for a long time now and it was almost essential to use them as the so called virtual block occupancy sensors were terrible, almost useless in a lot of cases. But now one is enough per block, nothing else needed as the software allows so many features now in software that works, the hardware solution is no longer needed. So one current sensing block occupancy detector is all that is required now. This alone will give the user all the functionality they will need. No need for flagman all all for block occupancy but they do become useful in setting up other functions that are triggered by a block becoming occupied. The trigger for the flagman being the block occupancy detector showing occupied. Just going on a bit and resistive wheel sets. For me very important. Recently a few people have been talking about sections of track that are not contained within a block, point work etc. RR&Co sees these sections of track as routes, they join block together. Routes can be all point work, some point work and some plain track. It does not matter but it is track that is not in a block. Some users on her have already said that some of their routes can be quite long and as such the software looses track of trains in these sections momentary as the train moves between blocks. So what is the answer, track circuiting. The same hardware, RS8 as used in blocks but all they do is feed power to the point work, sections of track not in blocks. So now routes have protection in that an object that draws current will make the route show occupied in the software. This of course is as long as you allocate the detector to the route which is easily done in the routes properties box. Have a look and you will find it quite easily. The best place to find routes is on the dispatcher display and select the routes tab and they are all there. Allocate the sensors to each route and now RR&CO will know when a train., loco is occupying that route. Starting to see the reason for resistive wheel sets now. Yes the software can work out by a very clever calculated guess system that does work incredibly well but it does not work 100% and due to this less than being perfect it can cause some horrible things to happen when running schedules and automatic operation. It is the releasing of routes and the changing of points that causes the problems if the calculated guess system has a hic up and send a train in tow different directions due to the point changing under a train. But if you use the resistive wheel sets to say that the route is still occupied, the software will not release the route and change points etc. An example on my layout is a loco moves out of a block into some point work and stops at a signal. But there is no block covering the point work. This is where the calculated system starts to fail now as the loco has not arrived at another block. Some times there could be a number of blocks in front of the loco it could arrive at but the software is not seeing the loco arrive at any of them. Now another train is coming along and is the reason for the loco having stopped at the signal. To make matters worse a train behind the stopped loco wants to go on a route through the point work that the stopped loco occupies. Don't forget now the calculated guess system has stopped working due to the conditions it is looking for has not happened. So it can release the route. But due to the point work having track circuiting it shows occupied to the software and locks all routes through it and stops the train behind the stopped loco from entering the route due to you the user of course having set the schedule conditions to not enter occupied routes. If you expand this a bit to adding stock of some kind, coaches or wagons to the stopped loco and the back of the train is in the point work, the resistive wheel sets on the stock will cause the route, point work to show occupied and not allow other trains to enter it or the route to be changed. So use resistive wheel sets, its important. If the stock has lights it the same as having little resistors across the wheels and works the same. As for the placement of them, certainly at the beginning and end but on long trains in the middle as well. RR&CO can get a little confused if all the items in a train don't have resistive wheel sets as it sees two trains moving around the layout as there is a gap between wheel sets. If the train is long and it only has resistive wheel sets at the front and back and the train passes from block to block, the route in between can show momentarily unoccupied and change the points resulting is another nasty accident. But if all the items in a train has resistive wheels sets the blocks and routes show occupied all the time time the train is moving along over the track work. So fit resistive wheel sets to a many items as you can or at least in such a way that blocks and routes will always show occupied irrespective of what section of the train is passing over it. Understand, yes, good. Have I misse any thing. If yes, please do ask. Off for a blowl of cold water to put my fingers in after all this typing. The digital interface is over heating !!!!!!!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Forgot, as you seem to like giving weather forecasts, its horzontal rain soon with wind after lunch Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alangr Posted November 13, 2009 Author Share Posted November 13, 2009 Thanks TTG Ths is a great help and supports John's view that with V7 only one Occupancy Sensor per block is needed; and profiling, indeed. But from your discussion on points and resistive wheelsets (which makes full sense and I think I follow) let me ask that stupid question. Why not make a block of 'the run of points between blocks'? It seems to me that providing that points in a block could only be changed if the block was unoccupied, making such a block would protect routes through (any of) the points in the block. I guess that I must be missing something to say this but right here, now, this seems to be a reasonable idea. So where is the problem? Have you made the coffee yet with that bowl of water? Must have been possible given the length of post... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john dew Posted November 13, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 13, 2009 Hi Guys Great email TTG covered all Alans questions and presented quite a compelling argument for occupancy indication of routes.......when I design the entrance to my terminus I may have to rethink my approach.........right now I dont detect occupancy of the the 4 tiers or fans ,each of 6 points, leading into the storage yards , I do however have really short detected blocks on the track connecting the tiers...........I hope I dont have to detect the tiers................I am hoping to deal with any problems by finetuning the schedule rules and schedule specific block and route properties and I have done a little of this already. My problem is I dont have the complete circuit laid yet (and wont for at least 6 months) and so have little or no experience of intensive operation and the problems that can arise......time will tell I am not wholly convinced about resistors on the axles.....I may have to install them but I intend to explore other alternatives first.............for now I will bow to your knowledge and experience......I aint going to win any debate on this right now I have to say I really enjoy this thread and your original one. Its great to be able to sit down and exchange ideas and concepts in such a relaxed manner. For reasons I am not quite clear about Alan and I have got in the habit of exchanging reports about current weather where we live in Athens and Vancouver knowing about the weather in West Wales will no doubt be equally useful Kind Regards .................it is dry here as we wait for the next system to roll in from the pacific Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john dew Posted November 13, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 13, 2009 Thanks TTG Ths is a great help and supports John's view that with V7 only one Occupancy Sensor per block is needed; and profiling, indeed. But from your discussion on points and resistive wheelsets (which makes full sense and I think I follow) let me ask that stupid question. Why not make a block of 'the run of points between blocks'? It seems to me that providing that points in a block could only be changed if the block was unoccupied, making such a block would protect routes through (any of) the points in the block. I guess that I must be missing something to say this but right here, now, this seems to be a reasonable idea. So where is the problem? Have you made the coffee yet with that bowl of water? Must have been possible given the length of post... Hi Alan Our emails got posted at the same time.......you will see that is exactly what I do........although I suspect with intensive operation one will need to get additional protection by adjusting the rules relating to route release................I guess we havent really made this super clear.....in V7 you can control the release of routes as well as blocks on a schedule by schedule basis Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Alan, Don't even think about blocks with points, full stop......................................................................................Just don't ! Stick with the track circuiting side of things or just leave RR&Co to cope using the calculated guess system. It does work as I said and does not for the reasons I have said above. John, I would not worry too much about track circuiting in the approaches to the fiddle yards. Yes it would be nice but as trains usually run straight through these some of the problems I have mentioned wont really materialise. Yes its a nice to have but not really required. I have it because I am obsessed with not having derailments in my fiddle yard as it takes 15 to 20 minutes to move things to lift the hinged board that covers the fiddled yard. My engine shed on on the upper level above the yards and its a pain dismantling the building to lift the board up. So I have it as added protection. You can lock the routes by using flagman combined with block occupancy after a fashion and may be worth looking at if you are interested. But for me the the other almost equally import reason for track circuiting is the signalling side of things. If you rely on the blocks to give changes of signals, it can be quite a while before a signal goes red after a train passes due to the distance to the next block. As soon as a train passes a signal on my layout, give or take one or two signals, they all change just about straight away. It just looks so much better this way, more prototypical. I do agree about operating this though to find out just what happens. You can set up the software with the basics, but the bugs don't come out until you do some serious playing. Also it makes you think of new things and all of a sudden, things that you could not work out in your head become so blatantly obvious. With little surface mounted components, resistors are very very small these days and present no problems in mounting them. Some people use resistive paint with success. Not tried it but others have so it must work. I still have some bigger quarter watt resistors on my stock and at times they click as they go around. Not good but its one thing on the toilet roll long list of things to sort out. Been there for nearly 15 years on some items and still resisting as they should. As for the weather, flood alerts, gusting 75mph. Just a gentle breeze for around here. Just wait until the wind gets up ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Why not make a block of 'the run of points between blocks'? I'm experimenting with doing just that. However if you do it pure and simple then I suspect if any part of the block is occupied, the points behind the train will still be locked up despite the train having moved off them. I'm following prototype practice in that each route is made up of a series of sub-routes. The sub-routes are locked at route setting time and released one by one as the train clears the associated track circuit. This unlocks the points for use by other routes. This bit works fine but I would caution anyone about following me, because due to some hardware problems and lack of time I haven't got far enough to try this in automatic operation. If it doesn't work then I may have to scrap most of it and start again. Also this method needs resistive wheelsets, otherwise the points will be unlocked underneath the train, so it's probably not what you're looking for! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.