mikemeg Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Many weeks ago, during a brief lull in the model signal building program, I began a thread around the rebuilding of the Bachmann B1's to a P4 scale model. This was very much a background job to the signals and I really only just began the job. The intention is to build a batch of two B1's for my Hessle Haven layout. Anyway, the move to the new RMWeb and a complete halt to this project, until now, means I can restart the thread on here. So the start point is the Bachmann B1 model (2 off) one of which started life as LNER No 1058, in LNER lined black and the other as 61010 - Wildebeeste in early BR lined black with the lion and wheel emblem. I don't know why I mention their original liveries for I shall completely repaint them. Anyway, the locos will remain/become 61010 - Wildebeeste, which is the very first B1 I ever saw and which continued to haunt us for many years, and 61215 - William Henton Carver. 61010 - Wildebeeste was one of those ubiquitous locos around the Hull area; it seemed to be everywhere and do everything. Perhaps there was more than one 61010, perhaps they swapped tales of the day's exploits around the turntable in Dairycoates shed, at night (Is this a new Rev Awdry type tale here?). So the spec for these models? The start point is the Bachmann model which, while it may now be quite old, is still as good as anything around, short of scratch building. The bodies will be heavily 'carved up' with new handrails, chimneys, domes, smokebox doors, boiler bands, handrails and any extra detail needed. Both locos will be completely repainted and lined out, 61010 in BR lined black with the lion and wheel, 61215 in LNER lined apple green but with the very earliest BR markings, including the legend 'British Railways' in full. Chassis' will be the David Bradwell B1 chassis kits (of which more later) with Mashima 1626 motors, 50:1 gearboxes and Alan Gibson wheels. The current intention is to use tender pickups a la the J39's which I have already done. So there you go, that's the project for the first part of the winter. As ever, let's start with a photo and where else but Hessle Haven on a day in 1958. Once again this is a treasured picture, now more than half a century ago, yet as fresh in the memory as if t'were yesterday. Happy memories. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Would you be willing to see if you could do a driveline making use of contrate-and-pinion gears for one of the B1s? Can't remember if 61010 was one of the engines that had a weird tender, converted from the partly-articulated one from the C7 Atlantic when the booster experiment was going on..... Dave Bradwell's instructions do give quite a bit of info about this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 Would you be willing to see if you could do a driveline making use of contrate-and-pinion gears for one of the B1s? Can't remember if 61010 was one of the engines that had a weird tender, converted from the partly-articulated one from the C7 Atlantic when the booster experiment was going on..... Dave Bradwell's instructions do give quite a bit of info about this. Tell me more of contrate-and-pinion (PM would be best). I'm willing to have a go at things new or different but I do need to know what this is and how it can be deployed. No 61010 didn't have one of the C7 tenders, just a standard 4,200 gallon, though there were detail differences across these, depending on when the loco (and more specifically the tender) was built. The first ten B1's were built during the war; 61010 was the first of the real production run of B1's. Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Tell me more of contrate-and-pinion (PM would be best). I'm willing to have a go at things new or different but I do need to know what this is and how it can be deployed. Link here: http://www.ultrascale.co.uk/ggs0001.php#CPG PM sent. Not being a fan of worm drives, it's just an idea, that's all, to create a home-built RG4-style setup. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Taylor Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 I'd had similar thoughts myself, though with an impending house sale and move hanging over us here, I've sort of put modelling things aside or down to an absolute minimum, so I look forward to reading of your progress (loads of pics please) and thank you imn advance for erm pathfinding for me. Hopefully I'll be following your footsteps next winter. Cheers Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Lewis Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Nice to see this resurrected. I've got a Replica/Bradwell B1 in the to-do drawer (along with lots of other things). It will be a long time until I start it, but I was thinking of using a similar arrangement to my J39, and also used by Tim Shackleton on his B1 in Plastic Bodied Locos, i.e. big Mashima in the tender and Cardan shaft to gearbox (can't remember what he used, but I've got a High Level one of some kind). I have the appropriate Gibson wheels in stock, but could be tempted by the forthcoming Exactoscale ones (if my wallet can stand it ). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 Nice to see this resurrected. I've got a Replica/Bradwell B1 in the to-do drawer (along with lots of other things). It will be a long time until I start it, but I was thinking of using a similar arrangement to my J39, and also used by Tim Shackleton on his B1 in Plastic Bodied Locos, i.e. big Mashima in the tender and Cardan shaft to gearbox (can't remember what he used, but I've got a High Level one of some kind). I have the appropriate Gibson wheels in stock, but could be tempted by the forthcoming Exactoscale ones (if my wallet can stand it ). Yes I've looked at the Tim Shackleton book too, though have rejected the tender drive. I would also use the Exactoscale wheels if I could be certain as to their availability but, in all honesty, everything from that company is now taking just so long to emerge that I will probably use Gibson wheels. Regards Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 So the first task is to strip these bodies down to the bare minimum. All paint on the loco bodies has been taken off with Pheonix Precision Superstrip, which was applied twice with a good rub down with a stiff tooth brush after each application. A final clean with Genuine Turps just to remove any stripper residue. The handrails were all snipped off and the white metal handrail stanchions carefully twisted out. The holes for these will have to be filled and then filed to profile before the new and much finer Alan Gibson medium and short handrail stanchions are fitted back. The cab glazing was removed and all but the spectacle glazing discarded. The cabside glazing will be replaced with flush glazing - you would be amazed how much difference this makes. The smokebox doors, chimneys and domes have been carved off and then the areas profiled for the new cast brass components. All boiler bands have been carved off (these are simply way over scale) using the home made tool in the photo below, and will be replaced by something .003" to .005" thickness and 0.7 mm wide (no more than a scale 3/8" thick). The final stripping job will be the loco and tender buffers, which will be replaced by Gibson LNER group standard sprung buffers. The photos show the stripping tool, which was fashioned to remove the boiler bands and the state of the models which is about as bad as they can possibly look. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Lewis Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Yes I've looked at the Tim Shackleton book too, though have rejected the tender drive. I would also use the Exactoscale wheels if I could be certain as to their availability but, in all honesty, everything from that company is now taking just so long to emerge that I will probably use Gibson wheels. Regards Mike Talking to them at Scaleforum, now that the double slip kits are out of the way they plan to concentrate on the driving wheels. (I believe all the machining or whatever is done). They were hoping to have them ALL (i.e. all 20 types I think, don't think I misunderstood them) ready for sale 'soon', possibly Warley. Of course things might have changed since then (or I might have got the wrong end of the stick). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nortonian Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Hi Mike, You mentioned earlier about making a number of B16`s. What engines are you going to convert to gain the end result ?. I have a couple to scratch myself, B16/3`s, so when you get round to it, I may just of found the time myself. Got this G5 to put on here next week first though. Regards Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted November 12, 2009 Author Share Posted November 12, 2009 Hi Mike, You mentioned earlier about making a number of B16`s. What engines are you going to convert to gain the end result ?. I have a couple to scratch myself, B16/3`s, so when you get round to it, I may just of found the time myself. Got this G5 to put on here next week first though. Regards Ian Ian, My plan is to scratch build the B16's, probably two. Both will be B16/1's; at a later date I might then do a B16/2 and/or B16/3. The B16's as built had a NER design boiler, but, during the 1930's a new LNER designed boiler was fitted, though not to all locos and some locos so equipped actually reverted to the original NER boilers at heavy overhaul. There were also differences on the splasher beading on the last B16's which were actually built under the LNER's auspices. Anyway, there are sufficient differences to warrant building two and I'm now kind of into this batch building mentality - see the three tenders, all built together. I've used plasticard quite successfully on LNER T1's (ex-NER 4-8-0's) and an LNER A6 4-6-2 tank - photo below, so I'm planning to experiment with using this same material to build some large tender locos. I did build a batch of LNER 3500 gallon tenders, using plasticard, and these went quite well - photo attached, so I think I can extend the use of this material to large tender locos. Anyway, we'll see. The last of these photos was my very first scratch build, largely using plasticard for the loco body. This thing is now four years old, weighs in at 16 oz and will easily pull or push seventy wagons at quite a slow speed. It was on this that I pioneered (at least for me, others have already done it) the use of plasticard. Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
iak Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Another topic to watch avidly... Having a B1/Bradwell beast to do myself as well as a couple of J39 beasties of similar ilk, this could be interesting. As for wheels... Are not the wheels on a B1 them same as a V2? Because Ultrascale's wish list has them on it..... Then again they will probably take longer to get on the market than the Exactoscale Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted November 12, 2009 Author Share Posted November 12, 2009 It is, perhaps, worth adding that this build won't really get into its stride until I've finished the signals, so progress will appear to be slow until early December. And I'm going to take an awful liberty here and sing the praises of Eileen's Emporium. Their service, responsiveness and product range is just great. Derek Russan seems intent on building on an already very good reputation. As ever, I have no connection with this company; just a very satisfied customer. Photo of one of the B1's with its new bits just placed on to check the look. Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nortonian Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Hi Mike, Do you not fancy working in brass or nickel ?. The engines look great. Just as a matter of interest, how do you form the boiler in plasticard, is it warmed up first ?. Regards Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted November 12, 2009 Author Share Posted November 12, 2009 Hi Mike, Do you not fancy working in brass or nickel ?. The engines look great. Just as a matter of interest, how do you form the boiler in plasticard, is it warmed up first ?. Regards Ian Ian, The boiler on the A6 is from the original Little Engines kit, so is whitemetal. The boiler on the T1 is plasticard. I roll the card (.015") around a suitable former and then strap it to the former, using various spacing pieces and rubber bands, ensuring that the rubber bands do not touch the actual boiler as they will distort it, hence the spacing pieces (normally strips of .060" plasticard) extending along the full length of the boiler. When rolling boilers, I always use a former very slightly larger than the diameter of the boiler so that there is no 'step' on an overlap. Formers are old pieces of dowel, bits of copper tube, old cigar cases; anything that might be of a suitable diameter from around 18mm (4' 6" diameter boiler) to 24mm (6' 0" diameter boiler - K3's!). The spacing pieces effectively spread the compressive load of the rubber bands, so avoiding any bowing where the rubber bands do not touch. The whole lot is then immersed in boiling water amd left to cool. When cool it comes off the former rolled. Circular formers are then added much as one would with a metal build. Oh I do also work in brass and nickel silver but I used the plasticard before I gained any sort of proficiency (and I still may only have very little) in working sheet brass and nickel silver. The only photo I have of this process is a quarter circular wall, done the same way, for the bridge on Hessle Haven but it does show how this is done. Imagine this going right round the former and with a much smaller diameter former and considerably more spacing pieces to hold the boiler against the former and you have the process. Works well and the resulting boiler does remain absolutely circular and with the addition of the circular formers, is pretty rigid and robust. Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
iak Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 You know one looks at this sort of project again and ask if the Bacchy K3 is another suitable "victim" for such butchery...? Plasticard in Locos mind? I like the end result mon, I'm no NER modeler but these look rather tasty Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted November 12, 2009 Author Share Posted November 12, 2009 You know one looks at this sort of project again and ask if the Bacchy K3 is another suitable "victim" for such butchery...? Plasticard in Locos mind? I like the end result mon, I'm no NER modeler but these look rather tasty Now funny you should say that. Hull, in 1950 (indeed from before the war) had anything up to twenty five K3's allocated and, from about 1950, anything up to thirty five Austerities - prior to 1951 it had up to thirty five O1's and O4's. So for the model to be right, it's going to need a K3 or two and an Austerity or four, O4 or four. So the Bachy models look the likely favourites for more 'surgery'. I've just been severely 'censured' on another topic - albeit by a contributor not the moderators - for pouring scorn on Bachmann chassis (and I did; rhymes with trap) but there's nothing wrong with the bodies that a little 'delicate butchery' can't fix. Keep us in threads, all this Bachy bashing with the odd scratch build chucked in - technical phrase for the maintaining of variety in ones modelling output! Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Lewis Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Ian, My plan is to scratch build the B16's, probably two. Both will be B16/1's; at a later date I might then do a B16/2 and/or B16/3. Mike I know you enjoy scratch building, but it might interest others to remember that London Road Models have taken over Steve Barnfields small range of etched kits (which have long been unavailable). They have re-released two already (D17 and G6 IIRC): the one they haven't yet re-released is a B16. Again IIRC this is a B16/1. Also, PDK are (according to their website) "awaiting test etches" for the B16/2 and B16/3. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 That's the thing about parallel boilers and round-top fireboxes - you can get away with using these methods. Introduce a tapered boiler and / or a Belpair firebox, and things get a bit more skewed. There is supposed to be a method for marking out a tapered boiler section in the flat (think one of F.J. Roche's books shows you how to draw it out, bisecting various angles, etc.), but it really needs to be explained here to spread the knowledge a bit further and get people to realise that scratchbuilding doesn't have to be painful. Not eveybody remembers how to bisect lines and angles! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nortonian Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 That's the thing about parallel boilers and round-top fireboxes - you can get away with using these methods. Introduce a tapered boiler and / or a Belpair firebox, and things get a bit more skewed. There is supposed to be a method for marking out a tapered boiler section in the flat (think one of F.J. Roche's books shows you how to draw it out, bisecting various angles, etc.), but it really needs to be explained here to spread the knowledge a bit further and get people to realise that scratchbuilding doesn't have to be painful. Not eveybody remembers how to bisect lines and angles! Well as luck would have it, I have that very book and will show how to make a tapered boiler on the Mod Halls thread Horsetan, then we can all make a complete ###### of it ! Regards Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Well as luck would have it, I have that very book and will show how to make a tapered boiler on the Mod Halls thread Horsetan, then we can all make a complete ###### of it ! .... I can hardly wait...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted November 13, 2009 Author Share Posted November 13, 2009 Mike I know you enjoy scratch building, but it might interest others to remember that London Road Models have taken over Steve Barnfields small range of etched kits (which have long been unavailable). They have re-released two already (D17 and G6 IIRC): the one they haven't yet re-released is a B16. Again IIRC this is a B16/1. Also, PDK are (according to their website) "awaiting test etches" for the B16/2 and B16/3. You're right, I do enjoy scratch building but, if there is an etched or even reasonable cast kit (which can be updated/modified/enhanced) available, then I'll use that. Scratch building can be very rewarding but sometimes, I'd rather not. Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted November 13, 2009 Author Share Posted November 13, 2009 That's the thing about parallel boilers and round-top fireboxes - you can get away with using these methods. Introduce a tapered boiler and / or a Belpair firebox, and things get a bit more skewed. There is supposed to be a method for marking out a tapered boiler section in the flat (think one of F.J. Roche's books shows you how to draw it out, bisecting various angles, etc.), but it really needs to be explained here to spread the knowledge a bit further and get people to realise that scratchbuilding doesn't have to be painful. Not eveybody remembers how to bisect lines and angles! Horsetan, Just one of the myriad reasons for choosing to model the old LNER or its constituents, though I don't want to provoke the creation of a list of reasons for modelling the 'tapered boiler' lines. Heavens, Hessle Haven will rejoice and resound to the sight (if not sound) of a Jubilee, Black 5, 8F and a Royal Scot, though the latter is the parallel boiler version. But it is the parallel boiler locos which will prevail. Sadly, because the Hull - Doncaster line was never RA 9 Hull never had an allocation of the big engines - V2's and Pacifics - and they were rare visitors to the town. So, apart from the C2 Atlantics which were regular visitors, at least until their withdrawal, the wide fireboxes will be a little thin on the ground, though there'll be some. You know much as the wide firebox aided the ability of these large ex GN and LNER locos to steam, of equal importance though much less well known and even less discussed in this examination of their free steaming capability was the curved fireman's shovel; allowing coal to be 'thrown round corners' into all the nooks and crannies of those huge fireboxes. Now I shall have the purists 'baying for blood' as well. As to marking out tapered boilers, think 'circumferences', Horsetan, think 'circumferences'. They're different at each end (clue) but they are known and a known distance apart (another clue). So now you've thought circumferences and diameters (yet another clue), think Pi; not pie as in meat or apple but pi as in 3.1412.... ad infinitum. This gives the relative angles of the tapered piece and, by a hideously complex mathematical process, governed by the actual inclination of the taper - i.e. all at the top or evenly top and bottom - the diameter of the arc at each end of the piece, for arc it is (this is a massive and decisive clue). So now the picture's complete and you can all go and do it. Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Bernard Lamb Posted November 13, 2009 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 13, 2009 That's the thing about parallel boilers and round-top fireboxes - you can get away with using these methods. Introduce a tapered boiler and / or a Belpair firebox, and things get a bit more skewed. There is supposed to be a method for marking out a tapered boiler section in the flat (think one of F.J. Roche's books shows you how to draw it out, bisecting various angles, etc.), but it really needs to be explained here to spread the knowledge a bit further and get people to realise that scratchbuilding doesn't have to be painful. Not eveybody remembers how to bisect lines and angles! Roche does give chapter and verse on the subject. However no less an authority than Guy Williams states that although it is sometimes worthwhile in 4mm work a very satisfactory boiler can be produced without this. He then goes on to detail what safeguards you need to know about if you do take the short cut. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10800 Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Hmmm, thinks ... I guess the conical roof of a Kentish oasthouse is no more than an extreme version of a tapered boiler Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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