RMweb Gold Barry Ten Posted November 20, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 20, 2009 Been browsing some pictures of unrebuilt Patriots and the majority clearly ran with rivetted Fowler tenders. However I've seen a few where the tender appears to be of the flush kind - there's one superb shot of a near pristine loco where rivet detail is clearly visible on the cab side and the tender underframe, but the tender side is completely smooth. Usually, if it's of the rivetted kind, the diagonal rivet line at the front of the tender side is clearly visible even if the others aren't, but again there are some shots where I don't see the diagonal line. I'm building a mongrel Pat from various bits and pieces and have a flush-sided Fowler tender I'd like to use, so it would be nice if I could convince myself that it was prototypical for a given loco. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Warrior Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Trying to work out which tenders were fitted when can become quite daunting! If you want to be accurate I can only suggest that you get hold of as many photos as possible. Your best starting point would be "Power of the Patriots" by J.S Whiteley & G.W. Morrison. A quick flick through my copy suggests that 5516 ran with a flush sided tender, without coal rails, originally fitted to a compound, but then fitted to 5971 (5500)when it was rebuilt from a Claughton in 1930 until transfered to 5516 in September 1935. It remained attached to 5516 until February 1952. No information as to a repaint in BR livery before 1952. The second photo of 45516 in Power of the Patriots, taken in the early 60's, shows it attached to a riveted tender. 45515 appears to have had a flush sided tender with coal rails by 1961. Hope that this begins to answer your question. I am hoping to pick up a copy of "Historical Monographs, No.3-Claughtons & Patriots from Wild Swann tomorrow at Warley, so may be able to give you more information from there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Barry Ten Posted November 20, 2009 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 20, 2009 Trying to work out which tenders were fitted when can become quite daunting! If you want to be accurate I can only suggest that you get hold of as many photos as possible. Your best starting point would be "Power of the Patriots" by J.S Whiteley & G.W. Morrison. Thanks - don't have that, but I do have the photographic accompaniment to "The book of the Patriot 4-6-0s". A quick flick through my copy suggests that 5516 ran with a flush sided tender, without coal rails, originally fitted to a compound, but then fitted to 5971 (5500)when it was rebuilt from a Claughton in 1930 until transfered to 5516 in September 1935. It remained attached to 5516 until February 1952. No information as to a repaint in BR livery before 1952. The second photo of 45516 in Power of the Patriots, taken in the early 60's, shows it attached to a riveted tender. 45515 appears to have had a flush sided tender with coal rails by 1961. Hope that this begins to answer your question. It does, especially as you've confirmed that at least some Pats did run with flush tenders on some occasions. The best evidence in the book I mentioned above is a wonderfully clear picture of 45547 in 1961, in almost ex-works lined green, with what appears to be a flush tender with coal rails. There are a couple of pics of 5516, taken in 1950 and 1951 respectively, which I agree looks to be running with a flush tender without coal rails although I believe I can see some rivets along the horizontal plating. There's certainly no sign of diagonal rivetting. There are two pics of 45515, but only one of them - taken in 1955 - is clear enough to show the tender type, which is rivetted. The other one, taken in 1959, could be either type since the tender is in shadow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Warrior Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 What I should have said is that all the tenders were riveted, it is just that some had flat head rivets which give the flush finish. I picked up a copy Historical Locomotive Monographs No.3: Claughton & Patriot 4-6-0's at Warley today. Not had chance to delve into it but will report back if I find anything which might be helpful. Also what may appear to look like a Fowler tender may in fact be a Deeley one with a new tank! They are the ones with a 9" gap between the tank and the buffer beam, the Deeley tenders were longer. Agan some had snap head and other flat head rivets. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Buhar Posted November 22, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 22, 2009 I don't think any Patriots ran with Deeley tenders! Tender swapping was standard Crewe practice (and why the LMS switched to numbers on loco rather than tender, the MR practice that was carried through). Tenders were overhauled quicker than locos and it was not cost-effective to have them sitting around waiting for "their" engine to be finished. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Warrior Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 I don't think any Patriots ran with Deeley tenders! Tender swapping was standard Crewe practice (and why the LMS switched to numbers on loco rather than tender, the MR practice that was carried through). Tenders were overhauled quicker than locos and it was not cost-effective to have them sitting around waiting for "their" engine to be finished. I think you are probably right Tren about the Deeley Tenders. There is a list of tenders attached to the Patriots in Historical Locomotive Mongraphs No.3. However you need to know the numbers of the different versions of the Fowler Tender for the list to be useful. As ever I would always try to find a good photo of the loco you wish to represent if you wish to strive for accuracy! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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