de Selby Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Now that the dust has sort of settled after the RMWeb upgrade, this is my first attempt at re-establishing one of the threads I had running on the old site. The process isn't quite as straightforward as I had assumed, so please bear with me if anything goes slightly awry. So far, I have concluded: - I will leave the majority of the old thread on the old site to be archived, but migrate the most recent section to this new thread. To link the old thread to the new and vice versa to assist navigation. I'll use thread format rather than blog in this instance (but experiment with the blog format for some other subject, possibly a micro layout or similar). So, the imported bit of the old thread below sets the scene for the (re?) construction of a pair of K's GN Atlantics. The complete thread covering some East Coast Pacifics as well is below: Link to the Original Thread on the Old Site May I just thank again those who left kind comments on the original thread - apologies if there are any which I didn't acknowledge. Thanks too to Martin Wynne for his incredibly useful transfer utility. To start at the beginning ................ __________________________________________ ??? posted on Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:23 pm This isn't actually the project I intended to tackle next; an element of randomness caught me unawares! As the coal-shovelling season is now winding down a bit (not to mention the house painting season or the gardening season) I may actually have some modelling time soon! K's kits have come in for a certain amount of adverse comment on the forum in the past - not without justification I would add. But for all their perceived faults; it's still possible to produce reasonable results with a little effort. At least that's the theory. Furthermore, working on the basis that one of the few things more masochistic than building a K's kit is building two K's kits, off we go.... The story so far.... A few months ago I bought a kit built G.N. Atlantic at a toy fair for a reasonable price. It was touted to be in running order and to be "professionally built" (whatever that precisely means) but alas, proved to be neither. Closer inspection revealed it to have the original K's mk2 motor which would just about run if wired directly to a controller. The tender (only) was fitted with wiper pick-ups and they didn't. Part of the reason was the K's tender wheels which were loose on their axles and thus wobbly. I decided to replace the motor/gearing with a Mashima flat can/High Level gearbox. The tender and front bogie wheels would be replaced with Gibsons. The driving wheels were Romfords, and were fine. I would modify the chassis to have a subframe which pivoted round the rear driving axle and had weight transferred to it by a lever at the front end. (This is easier to do than describe as will be seen later!) Pickups would be fitted to both loco and tender. I would try and preserve the paint job on the loco which was reasonably good. Mostly this went to plan, and a smooth running loco resulted. To my surprise, the original K's tender chassis and pick-ups worked well with the replacement Gibson wheelsets, so were retained. Unfortunately the paint finish suffered slightly during the alterations, at which point I discovered that the Precision Doncaster Green I thought was a match to the original paint, wasn't. Even so,it should be possible to disguise any touching up with a little weathering? Then I noticed that the boiler handrails were fitted much too high on the boiler. To fix this would involve filling in the existing holes and drilling new ones - more damage to the paintwork. The final decider was when I noticed that the footplate angled upwards from the firebox to the front end. Something hadn't quite been assembled correctly. Out came the Nitromors, which removed the paintwork and also softened the glue holding the splashers and boiler assembly to the footplate, allowing them to be carefully dismantled. In a similar state of disrepair, I had a second G.N. Atlantic, which had been partially built when I bought it a few years ago. Now, wouldn't it be a good idea to complete the two engines at the same time........ Here are the major components of the two Atlantics. Some slight adjustment required, methinks! The replacement Mashima motor and High Level gearbox can be seen. Refitting the boiler to the first loco. The firebox has already been tack soldered to the cab and footplate. The front end is drilled and tapped for an 8BA screw which holds the footplate/saddle/smokebox together. A considerable amount of metal had to be removed from around the cylinders to allow the bogie to move freely. Beginning to look like a loco once more..... Approx 1-2 mm had to be removed from the bottom of the firebox for the boiler to sit level on the footplate. On to the second loco, and the two halves of the firebox are soldered together, before being tack soldered to the boiler barrel ......... .....which was test fitted on the footplate / frames. Cab sides attached to cab roof........ ...... then cab front added, checking all is square before it is soldered up. Alan __________________________________________ ??? posted on Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:29 pm Once the cab was soldered together , the various soldered seams were carefully filed down until all were flat and square. This is important not only for the appearance of the cab, but because the squareness (or otherwise!) of the cab on the footplate will define whether the boiler assembly is square and parallel. So it's worthwhile spending some time and care at this stage and repeatedly test fitting the cab and boiler to the footplate until they both fit correctly. It took ages! When I was finally happy with the fit, the cab was soldered on tho the footplate, followed by the boiler assembly. Cab attached to footplate ........ ........ followed by the boiler/firebox/smokebox. Meanwhile, on the first loco, I added the splashers to the footplate. This proved to be extremely fiddly trying to get them square with the footplate and with each other. There are a couple of small gaps at the bottom of the splashers which will need to be filled with Milliput or similar. I have filed off the small cast oilboxes from the tops of the splashers as I have made replacements from a piece of scrap brass. These will be added after painting. Chassis test fitted to the second loco. Splashers have now been added to the first loco. The completed chassis of the first loco and the motor/gearbox and internal subframe of the second. Alan __________________________________________ Comment posted by micklner on Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:02 pm Looking good so far. What size of motor? looks enormous in the picture? Are you adding brake gear? Lastly I have to devise a fitting for the rear "bogie" wheel below the cab as mine is a constant derailer. Any ideas what you are doing with yours cheers Mick __________________________________________ ??? posted on Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:28 pm micklner wrote: What size of motor? Hi Mick, it is a Mashima 1628. The gearbox is a High Level HighFlier. This combination runs very smoothly and gives plenty of power. The GN Atlantic is a good prototype in this respect - if you drive off the front wheels there is room for quite a large motor within the boiler / firebox. You can mount it fairly high up, so it cannot be seen. I've put a stay/rear bearing from the sub frame to the rear shaft of the motor (between the motor and the flywheel) to stop the motor flapping about. I will put up photos to illustrate this whenever I assemble the second chassis if it's of interest. micklner wrote: Are you adding brake gear? Hopefully, though the driving wheels are very close together so I may have to work out some sort of cheat in order to mount it . Any suggestions gratefully accepted! micklner wrote: Lastly I have to devise a fitting for the rear "bogie" wheel below the cab as mine is a constant derailer. Any ideas what you are doing with yours That is a very good point. At the moment it is the unaltered K's arrangement - from whoever originally built the kit. I've had it running on a rolling road and on a short straight test track. I really need to take it down the model railway club and try it on a layout, through pointwork, etc. and see if it stays on the track. If it derails, one possible solution might be the etched radial truck recently introduced by London Road Models. Or maybe try to cobble something together myself from scrap etch....... Regards, Alan __________________________________________ Comment posted by micklner on Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:34 pm de Selby wrote: micklner wrote: What size of motor? Hi Mick, it is a Mashima 1628.. I've put a stay/rear bearing from the sub frame to the rear shaft of the motor (between the motor and the flywheel) to stop the motor flapping about. I will put up photos to illustrate this whenever I assemble the second chassis if it's of interest. micklner wrote: Are you adding brake gear? Hopefully, though the driving wheels are very close together so I may have to work out some sort of cheat in order to mount it . Any suggestions gratefully accepted! micklner wrote: Lastly I have to devise a fitting for the rear "bogie" wheel below the cab as mine is a constant derailer. Any ideas what you are doing with yours . If it derails, one possible solution might be the etched radial truck recently introduced by London Road Models. Or maybe try to cobble something together myself from scrap etch....... Yes please re motor fixing, I have never heard of a LRM radial truck nothing obvious on their site , Comet do something which might be useful to make as a link for a pony truck. I havent bothered on my loco as the frames are so thick they are a nightmare to drill for hanger shafts. cheers Mick __________________________________________ Comment posted by LNWRmodeller on Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:07 am micklner wrote: I have never heard of a LRM radial truck nothing obvious on their site , Comet do something which might be useful to make as a link for a pony truck. I havent bothered on my loco as the frames are so thick they are a nightmare to drill for hanger shafts. cheers Mick Mick, it is listed on the website in the Price Lists section under "LNWR CHASSIS KITS AND ACCESSORIES" - LNWRT - LNWR Radial Truck - ?‚??3.00 I designed the radial truck (which is a quite different thing to a pony truck) for the new Precursor Tank chassis, then used it in the 4' 6" 2-4-2 Mansion House Tank, and then in the Teutonic (all as per the prototype). When LRM got asked for them as a "spare part" I put some onto the waste space on another etch tool. The quantity available is dependant on the demand for the kit on that tool and so far LRM can't keep up with demand! So at the moment, there is little point in making a big fuss about it, until a decision is made about a new etch tool (it probably doesn't justify one on its own) or I can put some more onto the etch tool for the next kit I'm working on . Jol __________________________________________ ??? posted on Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:05 am Thanks for the detailed information, Jol. I bought one of the LRM etches to use on a Furness 0-6-2T which I have, and subsequently realised it would be ideal for other locos as well (e.g. a G.E.R. 2-4-2T). It could be a possible solution for a misbehaving rear wheelset on an Atlantic, though it may be that (for example) some light springing added to the axle would work as an alternative. Or you could do a Hornby and fit a flangeless wheelset similar to their recent Pacifics . Clearly I need to test one of my two Atlantics on the Club layout sooner rather than later though! Regards, Alan London Road etch for a radial truck. __________________________________________ Much, much later.............. Now, I would like to be able to say that during the hiatus in my RMWebing I was able to forge ahead with modelling and that the two locos are now complete. Unfortunately this was not the way things worked out and I've actually gone several steps backwards before regaining where I was in the first place. Micklner raised the question of his Atlantic which suffered derailments of the trailing wheelset. Mine had the same unmodified arrangement and I pondered some possible solutions. G.R.King (who, many will remember, built the beautiful P1 2-8-2 on the old forum) sent me by PM a detailed description of how he had cured a similar derailing problem on his DJH Atlantic. Basically, a hidden pony truck is fitted inside the rear of the frames. This seemed to be a very good solution to the problem and I resolved to do something similar. However, as one loco was more or less complete, I was planning to test run it with the original rear wheelset arrangement to see what happened. It was at this point that the gremlins intervened. One of the final jobs was to test the loco on a short section of track on the workbench to make sure that there were no shorts and that everything moved freely. It did, but there was a problem. The loco body had a list - the buffer on one side was lower than that on the other. Normally this kind of thing is caused by small irregularities in the whitemetal body, and I spent some time grinding and filing small areas to make it sit on the frames squarely. It didn't. Clearly something was wrong. It was only then that I noticed that the tops of the loco frames were out of alignment with each other. Then it slowly dawned on me: whoever had originally built the kit had assembled the two main frames upside down in relation to each other. So not only were the tops of the frames out of alignment, but so were the spacer holes and the axle holes. While I was questioning the builder's parentage it didn't help to realise that the Muppet was really me, because I had previously stripped down the chassis and not seen the problem. In my defence I can only say that the spacing of the various holes in the frames just happens to be such that it can be assembled inverted and only be slightly misaligned rather than blatantly wrong. :icon_redface: So, moving swiftly on, there was nothing for it but to strip down the chassis again and sort it out. Because I had cut slots in the frames for the front axles I couldn't just dismantle the frames and turn one of them the other way up. I would also have to replace the spacers (as these didn't align correctly) and realign the rear axle (which was slightly lower one side than the other). While all this was going on I might as well make the modifications for the rear pony truck as well...... Fortunately the chassis comes apart fairly easily. In the photo the frames can be seen with a new rear spacer soldered in, and a large chunk hacked out to accommodate the rear pony truck. The front spacer is still to be replaced. Here the new front spacer is in place and the cut away at the rear has been tidied up. Beside the frames can be seen the motor and sub frame assembly. Included spare amongst the etchings for the Jidenco Claughton (which I am also building - it can be seen in the background of some of the earlier photos) were these two pony trucks, which I will use for the two Atlantics. However, it would be easy to make up something which would do the same job from a short bit of scrap etch soldered at right angles to a length of 2mm bore brass tube (through which the axle would be threaded). The rear axle was realigned by the crude though effective method of removing the top hat bearing from one side of the frames, filing the hole oblong until the axle sat at exactly right angles vertically and horizontally, then soldering the bearing back in to the new position. The chassis was then reassembled and trial fitted. Thankfully this time everything sits squarely. As can be seen, the next task is to make mountings for the front bogie and the rear pony, and also the compensating lever from the front bogie to the front of the subframe chassis. This latter item is easier to make than to describe! Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
de Selby Posted November 30, 2009 Author Share Posted November 30, 2009 I managed to make some progress over the weekend. First task was to make pivot mountings for the rear pony and the front bogie, using BA brass bolts. I usually drill a small hole in the end of such bolts for a split pin (to prevent the retaining nut working loose then falling off) but in this case there was very little space and a likelihood that a split pin would short against the pick-ups. So instead I made a collar for each bolt from a short length of brass tube which just slips over the threads (or at least after some filing it did!). The retaining nut tightens against this collar, leaving the bogie / pony free to pivot. Next, I had to redesign the compensating lever at the front end. :icon_what: The old version (visible in some of the earlier photos in this thread) was mounted on the original K's round brass frame spacer. This spacer was replaced as part of the alterations, so much head scratching ensued as to how to fit a new lever into the very restricted space available. I also made things even more difficult for myself by deciding to make the new lever adjustable (other than by merely bending it!) so that more, or less weight could be transferred from the front bogie to the driving wheels. Above is the start of this (make-it-up-as-you-go-along) process. A pivot from a piece of brass rod goes through the frames. It is sleeved by a short section of square brass tube, to which the actual levers (scrap etch) are soldered. The square brass is drilled and tapped 12 BA, and a bolt is threaded through this, engaging in a flat area filed on the brass pivot rod. The embryonic lever is trial fitted to the loco. I can thus work out what the final shape should be, and how the lever should engage with the front of the subframe carrying the motor and drivers. And here's how it eventually worked out. The levers are bent to a shape to fit in with the chassis. A second bearing plate has now been soldered to the rear end of the levers. On the subframe a small extension (more scrap etch!) is soldered to the front end. A hole is drilled in this extension and tapped 8BA. A grubscrew is made by cutting part of the shaft from an 8BA bolt, having first cut a slot in the end of it using the piercing saw. This grubsrew is threaded through the 8BA hole in the extension piece, and is locked in position by an 8BA nut; when the chassis in assembled, the grubsrew bears on the rear plate on the levers and provides a means of adjustment. As I mentioned previously all this gubbins is *really* much easier to make than it is to describe! :icon_thumbsup2: Lets just hope it all works............:icon_biggrin: Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
de Selby Posted December 6, 2009 Author Share Posted December 6, 2009 Much to my surprise, the loco reassembled without problem, and after some minor adjustment runs very nicely up and down a length of track on my workbench :icon_thumbsup2:. I will have to try it on a layout (i.e. over curves and crossings) before I get too smug though! The first engine is pretty much ready for painting therefore. The one thing which I haven't added so far is brakegear (loco. and tender) - mainly because I haven't yet figured out the best way to do it. I may come up with a cunning plan while working on the second Atlantic....... Which brings me neatly (?) to said locomotive. First thing I've decided to tackle is the tender underframe. K's seem to have envisaged mounting wheelsets with outside pinpoint bearings directly in the whitemetal tender sideframes. (It is worth digressing here to note that there are many detail differences in the two kits, presumably as K's made design changes and "improvements" over the years. The first loco is (I think) a slightly later version than the second. It was provided with a moulded plastic inner tender underframe including pickups. This worked well once the wobbly wheels were replaced so I retained it.) Back to the tender, and the first task is to cut a pair of nickel silver strips for the frames. The two frames are soldered together, then the holes for the axles and brakegear pivots are marked, then drilled out. The hole for the centre axle is elongated very slightly upwards, so that the chassis will not "rock" on the centre axle. The tender body had these projections cast in which would have fouled the wheels ....... .......so they had to be ground away. The basic shape of the frames was cut out using a piercing saw, after which the two fames were unsoldered from each other. I used some Alan Gibson fold-up spacers between the frames. these were first soldered to one of the frames. Some longish lengths of 2mm rod (left over from High Level gearboxes) were then used to make sure all the axle holes aligned properly...... ...... before the second frame was soldered in position. It would be very useful to be an octopus while performing this task, as it seems to require several more limbs than we generally have to hold things in place while soldering. Perfectly singed fingers are also likely to be a result! Once the frame is assembled the wheelsets are added. Here is the GW Models wheelpress in action - well worth investing a few quid in one if you are assembling press-fit wheels such as these Alan Gibson ones. The frame with the wheelsets fitted....... ..... and here it is test fitted in the tender body. All in all not a bad day's work; it seems to have gone together reasonably well (famous last words ......) The next task will be to make some mountings so that the frames can be fixed to the tender, then add the brakegear and tender pickups. Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dudley Dodger Posted December 6, 2009 Share Posted December 6, 2009 Fantastic work. I'm sorry for not reading fully, but what are the locos? It'd be good to see a county tank. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
de Selby Posted December 6, 2009 Author Share Posted December 6, 2009 Fantastic work. I'm sorry for not reading fully, but what are the locos? It'd be good to see a county tank. Thank you. They are Ivatt Large Atlantics (LNER class C1) similar to the preserved No. 251 (which is currently at Bressingham, I believe). There's a distinct possibility, that as time goes by, other types of Atlantics might just end up in this thread . I don't have any current plans to do a County Tank, but I suppose stranger things have happened........ Did someone once make a kit for a County Tank? I've a sort of vague recollection of one but I am not sure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
de Selby Posted March 4, 2010 Author Share Posted March 4, 2010 During the recent RM Web problems / server migration I have been working away at these two locos. That is not to say they are now finished, but progress has been made (sometimes two steps forward and one back - or should that be one forward and two back?). Yesterday evening, I wired up the motor and pickups on the second loco, and tentatively placed it on the length of track on my workbench. I was chuffed to find that it ran up and down smoothly, with only minor adjustment needed. So I now have two Atlantics more or less in working order.B) On a less positive note, I did finally manage to get the first loco along to a recent Club running night to test it on a real layout. Perhaps not surprisingly, this was something less than a total success. While the loco proved that it could potentially run well, it showed a distinct intolerance of even the gentlest curves, and its progress along the track was marked by a continuous shower of sparks from the front bogie wheels! Despite this, the main aim of the evening was achieved - this was to take some photos of trains posed on the layout to use for publicity purposes on the Club's website. On return home close examination of the loco indicated that the main problem was that the whitemetal body was sitting too low on the chassis. Fortunately this was easy to fix. Opportunity was also taken to remove some additional metal from the rear of the frames to give additional clearance to the rear pony truck, from the front of the frames to to clear the rear bogie wheels, and from the rear (inside) of the front buffer beam to clear the front bogie wheels. That should cure the fire throwing tendencies! Similar modifications were made to the second loco. In due course they will both be tested again on the layout. I will get there eventually! Below, the K's slab brass frames for the second loco are being modified. A sizeable chunk is removed towards the rear to accomodate the pony truck. The front axle holes are opened out to slots, to allow the axle (mounted on a subframe) vertical movement. Here's the two sets of frames together for comparison. The inner subframe for the second set is bottom left. The K's brass screwed spacers visible will be replaced to accomodate the compensating lever and pony truck. In this scene of total carnage the two locos are being dismantled to allow brakegear to be fitted to the frames, and the frames spray painted. I had just started to fit brake shoes to the frames at the bottom right. Fortunately everything went back together again to look like this. Finally, here is a photo of one of the locos "in action" (or that's what I'd have you believe!) So, the major outstanding jobs are to fit cylinders and outside motion to loco 2, and finish off the tender running gear. Loco 1 needs tender brakegear fitted but is otherwise nearly complete. On with it then .......... Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atso Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Good stuff there. I love the C1 Atlantics such an elegant loco. Always interesting to see rebuild jobs and some interesting chassis modifications to boot! One question though. Were the splasher tops painted black? For what I've seen in various photos I'm really not sure. My own (N gauge) version has green splash tops but I'd love to get confirmation if they were green or black. Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 .....Did someone once make a kit for a County Tank? I've a sort of vague recollection of one but I am not sure. M&L Premier made one. It was latterly taken over by Alan Gibson and upgraded. Current owners of Alan Gibson are inviting subscriptions for a new batch of kits ----> Click here if interested (8 people have signed up so far) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Coming on nicely. I have cheated with mine the rear cartazzi axle has been placed in a brass tube and fixed so its now a "4-6-0" works fine !! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
de Selby Posted March 8, 2010 Author Share Posted March 8, 2010 Good stuff there. I love the C1 Atlantics such an elegant loco. Thanks for the kind comments. They are certainly an attractive prototype. They make an interesting comparison to the various East Coast Pacifics. Were the splasher tops painted black? .....I'd love to get confirmation if they were green or black. It would appear that they should be green! Thanks for pointing this out. My mistake, but easy enough to correct now. Ian Rathbone's superb rendering of the livery here Green splasher tops! M&L Premier made one. It was latterly taken over by Alan Gibson and upgraded. Thanks for that information, Horestan. I probably vaguely remember it from an old AG catalogue which I have somewhere. I did put my name down for a few kits, but these were LMS / GE prototypes. The first of these, the E4 2-4-0, arrived a few weeks ago. Superb! Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
de Selby Posted March 9, 2010 Author Share Posted March 9, 2010 Coming on nicely. I have cheated with mine the rear cartazzi axle has been placed in a brass tube and fixed so its now a "4-6-0" works fine !! Thanks Mick, and good to hear you've sorted out your C1. I still have a little way to go with mine, as you can see! Tender pickups were made from copper strip and one of the original K's baseplates...... ..... and were fixed to the tender frames. A minature plug and socket connects tender pickups to the loco. A tender drawbar was then made and fitted. And now the biggie! I just knew that making the outside motion parts would be an "interesting challenge". I wasn't disappointed. Here are a few of the bits. The connecting rods (bottom left) by K's are in whitemetal! - don't think I will be using these - I would imagine they would last a couple of wheel revolutions before bending like sphagetti! Fortunately I picked up some nice etched rods (at top) from a trader's "bits box" at a toy fair. I believe they were originally from a NuCast T14, but when shortened a bit will do the Atlantic nicely. I am using Comet crossheads, as the ones with the kit were far too short. The connecting rods had a 14BA washer soldered to the small end to give additional strength. The crossheads were tapped 14BA, then the connecting rods attached with bolts. The K's slidebar material was used, but had to be reduced in thickness in order to fit the Comet crossheads. Here the crosshead is trial fitted to the slidebars. After much thought, I decided to cut the cylinder castings from the central stretcher, and attach them to a new one made from nickel silver offcuts. I also removed the ghastly blob from the cylinders which represented the piston gland housing. A replacement was made from a length of brass tube with a 14BA washer soldered to the end. This will also act as a guide for the piston rod. Finally, the whole shebang was temporarily assembled and the wheels rotated by hand. This was to determine how much length had to be cut off the piston rods on the Comet crossheads. If they are too long, then the rod will strike the front of the cylinders. Too short, and it will come out of the gland at the rear of the cylinders. Either of these happenings will not encourage smooth running! Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
de Selby Posted April 15, 2010 Author Share Posted April 15, 2010 The Atlantic show rumbles on......... It became apparent that the connecting rod would foul the crankpin on the front drivers as the wheels rotated. It was possible to cure this by running the thread slightly further along the front crankpins. In order to do this a 14BA die nut was obtained from Eileen's Emporium. With the thread extended, the coupling rod and 14BA retaining nut were assembled, then the excess filed off the end of the crankpin. The retaining nut itself was also filed thinner. Everything was then assembled and the loco tested under power on a length of track. New footsteps were made from some scrap etch using an original whitemetal one as a pattern. They are stronger and less likely to be broken off, also thinner so less likely to be foul of the rods. The steps were then attached to the loco body. Tender brake gear was made up using Gibson Midland items. Being plastic the shoes won't short against the wheels. Pull rods are from an etch produced by Mainly Trains. For the K's moulded plastic inner chassis, little brackets wre made up for the brake hangers, again using scrap etch. Just a few odds and ends to finish now, then it's the paintshop, followed by further test running on a club layout. Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
de Selby Posted August 9, 2010 Author Share Posted August 9, 2010 So, they are finally complete. Well apart, that is, from a few minor details such as adding the whistles, the cylinder draincocks, crews and coal. As ever, the painting took an age. Or more precisely two ages - one for each loco! It's not something that I wanted to rush, though and the finer details - such as the red lining on the tender frames - have the capacity to drive you bonkers if you try to do too much all at the one time. At least, that's my excuse. Both locos had successful test runs on the Cambridge club's 00 Gauge layout - a few very minor tweaks are required such as shortening the front and rear guard irons by a very small amount to increase clearance on uneven track. Fingers crossed, one or both locos might accompany the layout when it next goes to an exhibition (planned for October). The one potential problem with these engines will be their ability to go round curves (or not). "Trainset" curves are a definite no-no - there's so little clearance around the front bogie and cylinders. The layout on which they were tested fortunately has only gentle curves but some time soon I will need to experiment and find out what the minimum radius they will negotiate is. Some pictures below. Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atso Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 Alan, Those look fantastic! Amazing what can be done with a few lumps of whitemetal... Shame I'm modelling N gauge otherwise I'd be begging you to build me one! B) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 Hear, hear. Excellent. I hope mine end up half as good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted August 15, 2010 Share Posted August 15, 2010 Alan They are looking realy good, been away in the Peak District so had a rest from modelling. Next job is top fit the cylinder assembley to the chassis, it will be a compromise between looks and functionality Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
de Selby Posted August 16, 2010 Author Share Posted August 16, 2010 Thanks everyone for the kind comments. I will be very interested to see how other RMWebbers' Atlantics progress; the GN large Atlantics are very distinctive and attractive locos. Hopefully this thead has shown that the old K's kit will still produce a reasonable model with a bit of work. The most important points seem to be to get the multi level footplate correct, and to do a lot of fettling around the front frames/ bogie/cylinders to achieve clearance. The latter is a bit of a black art as what is needed will depend on the curves, etc. on your layout. There are alternative starting points such as the DJH kit and ACE now do an etched version (which I believe is reduced from their 7mm scale artwork). There's nothing available ready to run (so far, anyway), so at the moment if you want one, it has to be built. There were quite a few oddities among the GN Atlantics, such as booster fitted and compound versions - any of which which would make fascinating models (maybe something to think about in the future). There was a thread running a while back for one of these variants, though I haven't seen it recently. Of course, there were various other types of Atlantics running in the UK as well, some of which may cause this thread to continue.......... Regards, Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldrog73 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Hi Alan I have just joined RMweb and noticed your item. If you are contemplating doing a GNR Small Atlantic from the DJH kit beware. I built two a few years ago and had finished them, but luckily not painted them,when I discovered that they were 3mm too long. I had to cut through the boiler, footplate, frames and bogie to correct the lenght! I assumed it was a mistake by DJH but when I questioned them they said "oh no - we did that deliberately so that it would go round sharp bends, we do that to other locos as well". My reply was that if you are producing kits that are not ot scale you should state the fact on the outside of the box. So before you part with your money for a DJH kit check it is the correct length. oldrog73 Thanks everyone for the kind comments. I will be very interested to see how other RMWebbers' Atlantics progress; the GN large Atlantics are very distinctive and attractive locos. Hopefully this thead has shown that the old K's kit will still produce a reasonable model with a bit of work. The most important points seem to be to get the multi level footplate correct, and to do a lot of fettling around the front frames/ bogie/cylinders to achieve clearance. The latter is a bit of a black art as what is needed will depend on the curves, etc. on your layout. There are alternative starting points such as the DJH kit and ACE now do an etched version (which I believe is reduced from their 7mm scale artwork). There's nothing available ready to run (so far, anyway), so at the moment if you want one, it has to be built. There were quite a few oddities among the GN Atlantics, such as booster fitted and compound versions - any of which which would make fascinating models (maybe something to think about in the future). There was a thread running a while back for one of these variants, though I haven't seen it recently. Of course, there were various other types of Atlantics running in the UK as well, some of which may cause this thread to continue.......... Regards, Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
de Selby Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 Hi Alan I have just joined RMweb and noticed your item. If you are contemplating doing a GNR Small Atlantic from the DJH kit beware. I built two a few years ago and had finished them, but luckily not painted them,when I discovered that they were 3mm too long. I had to cut through the boiler, footplate, frames and bogie to correct the lenght! I assumed it was a mistake by DJH but when I questioned them they said "oh no - we did that deliberately so that it would go round sharp bends, we do that to other locos as well". My reply was that if you are producing kits that are not ot scale you should state the fact on the outside of the box. So before you part with your money for a DJH kit check it is the correct length. oldrog73 Hello, and welcome to RMweb. Thank you for the forewarning - actually I do have one of the DJH small Atlantics so when I get around to building it I will certainly bear this in mind. Much better to know this sort of thing before the build! Have you any photos of the ones which you have completed? It is always a bit of a thorny problem. I can see the argument whereby manufacturers make some compromise or other, but at what point does this detract unacceptably from the model - Should a finescale kit be compromised to negotiate trainset curves? Or conversely, should it be so rigorously accurate to scale that there's little chance of getting it to go round even gentle curves? There's not likely to be single answer as a lot depends on the individual modeller's circumstances (gauge, track standards, minimum radii, etc) and how much compromise they are happy to accept. The K's Atlantics have compromises of their own of course, but do (I think) portray the prototype reasonably well. Regards, Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldrog73 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Hi Alan That was quick!. For photos go to my website LNWRSTEAMSHED.CO.UK click on Locomotives then click on GNR Atlantic and there it is (hopefully). It rockets around 3ft radius curves. The layout will be at Warley and Wigan this year. My point is that if a manufacturer makes such serious compromises as DJH have done they should state the fact on the box, not just let the purchaser find out later. The purchaser then has the chance to decide whether the compromise is acceptable to him. If the manufacturer does not provide this information to the purchaser I would have thought the Sale of Goods Act would be relevant. oldrog73 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted February 21, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2011 My point is that if a manufacturer makes such serious compromises as DJH have done they should state the fact on the box, not just let the purchaser find out later. The purchaser then has the chance to decide whether the compromise is acceptable to him. If the manufacturer does not provide this information to the purchaser I would have thought the Sale of Goods Act would be relevant. oldrog73 On that basis, no model manufacturer would ever be able to offer anything for sale without a catalogue of disclaimers, including the models inability - in most cases - to burn coal to create steam. I believe that if 3mm concerns you, then scratchbuilding is your only certain recourse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I saw the LNWR layout at Ally Pally very nice, with excellent stock. I presume Roger must have a very accurate drawing as 3mm isnt exactly a large measurement and only 9 inches in 4mm . Some available drawings are probobaly not that exact ? . I agree the discrpancy should be mentioned if the makers are aware. But I wouldnt lose too much sleep over it , especially in a built up kit , it must have been a nightmare to correct. Back to the thread . De Selby, have you any updates on builds as this has been quiet for far too long !! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
de Selby Posted February 22, 2011 Author Share Posted February 22, 2011 For photos go to my website LNWRSTEAMSHED.CO.UK click on Locomotives then click on GNR Atlantic and there it is ........The layout will be at Warley and Wigan this year. I remember being very impressed with this layout when it appeared in Railway Modeller. Beautiful collection of locos. The GNR Green livery on your Atlantic looks very well and is tempting to try and emulate ..... I shall look out for the layout if I am at Warley this year. My point is that if a manufacturer makes such serious compromises as DJH have done they should state the fact on the box I can't really see any manufacturer putting that sort of information on their box though: New! with extra added inaccuracies! - OK, the above is a facetious example, but I doubt that confessing to such compromises would increase their sales....... Likewise, legal recourse - Sale of Goods Act - or whatever, could be a real can of worms. The likely result might be bad for manufacturers, and bad for modellers (no more models?) Lawyers however would probably make a tidy fortune...... It is annoying though when something turns out not quite as it should be. In another thread the Finecast "Hush Hush" is discussed and the tender not being quite right mentioned. A classic (vintage?) example was the GEM Midland Compound which (if my memory serves me correctly) had its (driving) wheelbase stretched from 9'6" to 10'0", in order to fit the Triang L1 chassis. Although this is only 2mm it was certainly noticeable when compared to a model with the correct wheelbase. The compromise can be corrected, but only by the sort of surgery which you described for your Atlantic. I presume Roger must have a very accurate drawing as 3mm isnt exactly a large measurement and only 9 inches in 4mm . Some available drawings are probobaly not that exact ? ........... Back to the thread . De Selby, have you any updates on builds as this has been quiet for far too long !! Drawings can be a minefield as well. People modelling LNER have a good resource with the Isinglass drawings, which seem to be generally accurate (unfortunately they don't do a Robinson Atlantic!). But as I have found recently when looking for sources of LMS drawings, there can be quite a few discrepancies out there to trip you up. I haven't posted for a while because I have been making a concerted attack on several unfinished projects before I start into something new (or at least that is the theory). It might be worth while putting the results of this, and a few pictures, into a thread. Regards, Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Yes please to the pictures Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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