Wheels don't come loose

[3737]

Does anyone on the forum know what type of wheel this is and how it can be loosened from the axle:

 

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It's got plastic spokes and a brass centre, which is firmly stuck to the axle. I've got no idea how they did it.

The axle is 1/8th in, and narrower, approx. 2mm at both ends.

 

It belongs to a kitbuilt chassis without a motor, and I would like to mount a motor to it.

 

Unfortunately it's so firmly stuck, that I can't pull the wheel off it's axle, even with my wheel puller.

 

Leen.

[industrial]

I think they are very old Alan Gibson wheels and I don't think there is any way to get them off at all. :icon_sad:

[Tim V]

Based on the old Studiolith design. The wheel centres have a taper which fits onto a tapered axle.

 

Difficult, but not impossible to get off, but do you really need to? Are you scrapping these wheels? If so, by using two pieces of steel either side of the axle over a vice mouth and using a punch less than the diameter of the axle you can see you can get them off.

 

You may not be able to use them again afterwards.

[Kenton]

I don't recall AG ever having what looks like a serrated bush at the centre or tapered axles.

 

Is it possible to use a punch to force them off - though you will probably damage the wheel by doing so.

 

Maybe the best option is to just scrap them - cut the axle, and start with nice new wheels and axle.

[3737]

Are you scrapping these wheels?

 

No, I would like to reuse them, after turning the flanges down a bit. The wheels are from a GCR F1 Cotswold built loco I found on Ebay. They are 22mm with 20 spokes, and should be 5' 7" with 20 spokes, so they are about right.

If I buy new wheels, the compromise would be either fewer spokes, or take the risk of 5' 8" 20 spoke Alan Gibson wheel no. 4868C (22.5mm), which may come out just a tad too close to the brake hanger.

 

Thanks for your suggestions, hopefully someone comes up with a more careful solution, or otherwise I might just use your idea.

 

Leen.

[Tim V]

Well if you are turning the flanges down, and have a lathe, you can put a 1/8" taper reamer in from the back, and make the hole so it will half slip onto a 1/8" axle. Quarter up and fully press home. That way you can reuse the wheels.

[3737]

I think the best plan is to first punch the axles out of the wheels, and next to see if the wheels are reusable.

 

If not, I will try a 5' 8" AG wheel from an unmade C12 kit.

 

If I can make that fit, then I will spend another tenner on new wheels from Mainly Trains.

 

I think 0.5 mm too big shouldn't be noticeable.

 

By the way, it's time Sharman wheels get back into business.

 

Thanks for your help.

 

Leen.

[bigherb]

They look like the old Hamblings wheels, which are a tight press fit onto the axle. Support the inside of the frames by the axle bush and drift the axle through the wheel.

[Grovenor]

I also thought Hamblings, the reduced portion of the axle was splined so don't try twisting it just punch it out. The spokes will probably be brittle so make sure you suppport it on the brass centre.

Regards

Keith

[Il Grifone]

I can confirm Hamblings wheels. These were forced onto their axles using a vice and a wheel press. Very difficult to remove again as the spokes are very fragile (some sort of resin IIRC). Try brute force with a screwdriver at the hub. You should be able to reprofile them in situ as the rims are brass.

[Bruciethefish]

If you have a wheel puller, try tightening it down onto the axle, then give a firm but gentle tap to the top of the puller's screw with a small hammer;- this may just give enough shock to free the axle without busting everything. If you can clamp the jaw of the puller inside the chassis, that should support the wheel centre adequately..

[bertiedog]

They are indeed Hamblings Wheels by the look of them_*^{see below}, I should know, as at one time, I manufactured them at Hamblings in Cecil Court, London.

They should be a brass rim, (occasionally nickel silver, or plated), with the centre in the form of a serrated brass bush, which is moulded in to the Bakelite Plastic spokes.

 

The bush is deeply undercut and if the wheel is removed, then the centre hole must not be increased in diameter to re-mount.

 

It will take a small increase if the wheel is untrue, and about 20 to30 thou diameter increase in size can be tolerated, without breaking into the undercut, and risking the bush breaking free from the mouldings.

 

The way to remove the wheel is via a gear puller, a simple one can be made from scrap metal.

 

Take a piece of 1/8 steel plate, ( or nearest), and drill a hole in the plate, (about 2 inches long and 1 inch wide). Drill in the centre a clearance hole, and firmly solder on a suitable nut for any bolt that you have of about 5mm to 6mm diameter.

 

Drill two holes at the diameter of the wheel , away from the centre, and fit 4mm bolts to the plate, with nuts to secure, making them run past the rim of the wheel.

 

Take the main bolt and sharpen the end by filing, or in a lathe, or in a drill, leaving a 60 degree point approx, with a small flat, not a sharp point.

 

Assemble around wheel, so that the plate is on the outside, with the two outer bolts passing around the rim, and add washers and nuts to them, tightening till the plate is secure, and the centre hole is over the axle centre, and then gently wind the main bolt in , the tip will push the axle out of the bush, without the slightest damage to the bush.

 

Now the warnings, the wheels are delicate in some ways, and bad examples were moulded at times, (not by me!), and the spokes may break, if this happens there is no cure. So proceed with care.

 

It is possible to help the process with another plate behind the wheel to spread the load, just make sure it will clear the axle , some frames are so tight you can't get the extra plate into place.

 

Once the axle starts moving it should slide straight off the splines on the end of the axle. Retain the axles, they can be de-burred and re-used. In theory the Hamblings wheel press is needed to refit the wheels, but a large vice, or a lathe, can be used, please ask for details.

 

The wheels have a BMRSB 1948/50 profile for fine scale, they were designed by Mr Stewart Reidpath for Hamblings, but can be re-profiled to near NMRA RP-25 fine scale, and there is enough brass in the rim to completely re-profile to any standard including P4 and S4 fine scale.

 

If you remove the wheels and want to recover them etc., please PM me, I may be able to help further on any trouble with these Wheels, re-turning, proper spoke finishing, or re-profiling them.

 

* Now after saying all of this, the wheels may not actually be Hamblings, as at one point Keysers made a very close copy, the method of removal would be the same, but K's plastic is brittle, and the bush different, and the serrations on the picture image do look a bit like K's, so be warned, the wheels may break up on removal if they are K's.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

Design for a puller, add extra plate under orange nuts/washers if you want, drill to suit all clearances, but I think it will be a very tight fit. (It will have to have the back centre hole in the form of a slot to slide over the axle).

 



 

Hope this helps, ask if more details needed.

 

Stephen

[bertiedog]

I notice that you say that you have a puller and this is worrying me, the force required seems to indicate either a K's wheel, or a very tightly fitted Hamblings.

If the axle end is un-splined it is K's, although even then they made some

copies

with axle splines as well.

In this case of a tight fit, a plate must be fitted to the back of the wheels, to spread the puller load, and if the puller of yours allows it, then the bolts must go through the spokes to even out the pull completely.

 

If my design is used , then 8ba bolts can be used through the spokes easily, just drill the plates, and clamp the front plate and back plat firmly one, and wind in the main bolt, it will shift anything!!!

 

If one wheel is removed, and the other is OK, then leave the other on, and a new gear box etc can be added, and the wheel re-pressed. Due to the splines it should be able to get the quartering easily. De-burr the axle end, and try the fit to see whether the quartering is OK, and press home, easing a bit witha taper boach may help, only a touch, if it goes to far, then Loctite the wheel on to the axle.

 

If all else fails, I have a few un-machined blanks for the wheels, and might be able to replace, please PM. I do have some axles.

 

Stephen

[3737]

Thanks a lot to you all for the help provided.

 

This weekend I will see what can be achieved, using your solutions.

 

Now that you explained the construction I'm sure that somehow it will work.

 

I am almost sure the axle ends are splined, because there was no motion when I tried to twist them.

 

I will let you know how I proceed.

 

Leen.

[3737]

Yesterday I built a wooden construction to support the wheels:

 

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I thought this woulde be the quickest way for me.

 

I put the chassis in the gap, the wheel in question would be supported by the wood.

 

Then I gently tapped the axle with a thin punch, and yes, it went down.

 

Both Stephen and Grosvenor had said the plastic would be brittle, and indeed it was. Trying to give the last pull with my wheel puller broke the spokes of one wheel.

 

The other three came off without trouble.

 

After that I went through about 20 photos of the F1, and tried to count the spokes on the drivers. On all photos I counted 18 spokes, whereas Mike Sharman's wheel specifications says there are only 18 spokes on some.

 

Never mind, that makes it a lot easier to order new 5' 6" AG wheels from Mainly Trains (no. 4866), and these are more accurate, and finer, than the 20 spoke K's or Hamblings drivers.

 

By the way, that is a solid construction you did on those wheels, Stephen, I wish they would still be made like that.

 

Thanks again for the help.

 

Leen.

[3737]

After 2 months of serious work on a remake of the chassis, the GCR tank (LNER F1) runs at last. First I beefed up the rods, blackened the Alan Gibson wheels and glued them together, then I added sandboxes and -pipes to the chassis, and fitted pick-ups to all 8 wheels. I repainted the chassis and put it all together, using a High Level Kits gear box and a Mashima 1224 motor. The loco runs a bit slowly at ca. 40mph, but I think it will do for me. I'm not sure if they ran any faster most of the time in real life. Finally I fitted a TCS MC2 decoder and it now seems to work fine.

 

Here are some pictures:

 

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What remains is restoring the lining and the paint on some corners. I think she already was a beautiful loco (I bought it on Ebay) and am quite happy with the result.

Thanks again for all your help.

 

Leen.