Modern Era Signalling Guides

[David Rickard]

Can anybody recommend any good resources for signalling? I'm pretty sure my layout is only going to need a handful of signals, but I want to get them right. Signalbox.org seems to be a bit too semaphore-specific, so I'm none the wiser for reading it! I'm really not all that au fait with the basics, so some sort of primer would be nice. Once I've had a whack at drawing up my plan, I'd like to ask the good folk here to cast your eyes over it and suggest any changes as necessary.

 

Having Googled about, I've found plenty of people willing to sell me signals, just not a lot of info about setting them up!

 

Thanks in advance.

[The Stationmaster]

Can anybody recommend any good resources for signalling? I'm pretty sure my layout is only going to need a handful of signals, but I want to get them right. Signalbox.org seems to be a bit too semaphore-specific, so I'm none the wiser for reading it! I'm really not all that au fait with the basics, so some sort of primer would be nice. Once I've had a whack at drawing up my plan, I'd like to ask the good folk here to cast your eyes over it and suggest any changes as necessary.

 

Having Googled about, I've found plenty of people willing to sell me signals, just not a lot of info about setting them up!

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Show us your plan when it's ready - including Region and era modelled (it does make a difference with colour lights too) and no doubt various of us will give you plenty of hopefully useful advice.

[beast66606]

Can anybody recommend any good resources for signalling? I'm pretty sure my layout is only going to need a handful of signals, but I want to get them right. Signalbox.org seems to be a bit too semaphore-specific, so I'm none the wiser for reading it! I'm really not all that au fait with the basics, so some sort of primer would be nice. Once I've had a whack at drawing up my plan, I'd like to ask the good folk here to cast your eyes over it and suggest any changes as necessary.

 

Having Googled about, I've found plenty of people willing to sell me signals, just not a lot of info about setting them up!

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Post here and we will help - why not post the plan and then rather than signalling it completely we can try and lead you through the basics ?

 

It's not a pure science and there are lots of ways to skin the cat.

[David Rickard]

Well my plan is ready. I'll admit I'm already sticking things down, so I'm hoping it's reasonably sane.

 

 

The purple/blue areas are non-scenic, so ignore those.

 

I know the platforms will basically need something each end, and the depot sidings would have some sort of ground signals. After that, I have nary a clue. I looked at a photo of my local station and noticed the signals having a large extended section sticking out the top at an angle, which I seem to recall being something to do with route selection. Anyway, seeing that confused me a bit more, so I'm ignoring that for now!

 

Thanks for the help.

[beast66606]

I know the platforms will basically need something each end, and the depot sidings would have some sort of ground signals. After that, I have nary a clue. I looked at a photo of my local station and noticed the signals having a large extended section sticking out the top at an angle, which I seem to recall being something to do with route selection. Anyway, seeing that confused me a bit more, so I'm ignoring that for now!

 

Thanks for the help.

 

Are your through lines bi-directional ?

[David Rickard]

Good question. I'd sort of envisioned them as being up and down, but flexible - hence all the pointwork outside the station for swapping tracks. I suppose they are really.

[beast66606]

Start adding some signals then ...

[Russ (mines a pint)]

Good question. I'd sort of envisioned them as being up and down, but flexible - hence all the pointwork outside the station for swapping tracks. I suppose they are really.

The other people are the ones to ask about signalling, but how bi-directional?

-looking at the plan I could see why you might want to 'turnback' in the scenic section, the bay platform and such

-but is there a real need to run wrongline it seems the deadend storage sidings can be accessed adequetly without a 'need', 'want' is a different matter- but dont mind me, I just always try to keep things simple!

 

Part of this might be era specific, bi-directional platforms seem far more common now than they did in the 70'/80's fr'instance?

[beast66606]

The other people are the ones to ask about signalling, but how bi-directional?

-looking at the plan I could see why you might want to 'turnback' in the scenic section, the bay platform and such

-but is there a real need to run wrongline it seems the deadend storage sidings can be accessed adequetly without a 'need', 'want' is a different matter- but dont mind me, I just always try to keep things simple!

 

Part of this might be era specific, bi-directional platforms seem far more common now than they did in the 70'/80's fr'instance?

 

Bidirectional became more common with colour lights, it was a lot easier to control a platform from one box and even easier with colour lights as the locking was electrical, it did exist in "the good old days" but required interworking between the boxes, generally there was more than one as otherwise it would be a simple station with little need for bi-directional working.

 

Back to Davids plan .. look beyond the fiddle yard, he could use the bi-directional features to assume an off scene branch connection which can only be accessed off one line, allowing, for example, a 153 to arrive and then return on the same line.

 

 

I would be inclined to make the right hand end normal running and only have bi-directional running through the station, but then thats what Widnes has !

 

Your call but it alters the signalling so a decision needs making ...

[David Rickard]

Right, yes, I think the station would be bi-directional, but the tracks entering would be single direction.

 

The bit I have trouble on is am I just looking at red/green signals? My knowledge is a bit iffy, but I'm aware of there being distant pre-signals. I think I'll try something, post it up and let you guys have a look.

 

I'll go do that now

[beast66606]

Right, yes, I think the station would be bi-directional, but the tracks entering would be single direction.

 

The bit I have trouble on is am I just looking at red/green signals? My knowledge is a bit iffy, but I'm aware of there being distant pre-signals. I think I'll try something, post it up and let you guys have a look.

 

I'll go do that now

 

Signalling aspects are (stick to 3-aspect) ..

 

Red -> Yellow -> Green

 

Red colour lights can never be followed by a green, 2-aspects are rare with this type of layout, normally there is a signal after the sidings / bay connections - so 3-aspects for the left to right direction.

 

And travelling the other way, the bay buffer stop is treated as a red signal, so the signal controlling entry to the bay needs to be able to display a yellow but it will also need a green for the main line so again a 3-aspect.

 

Over to you ...

[David Rickard]

 

So here's a starter for ten.

 

• Should the bay platform be a two aspect? If there's a signal controlling entry to it, would that be part of another signal somewhere?
• I'm pretty sure the depot should have a ground signal to let trains out. But what about letting them in? Should there be one on each track in the depot? As it's sort of self-contained, would it need such things for movements into the headshunt?
• I'm wondering where the sections lie. Would it be one in the station, then another from the station signals through the points to the last signal, then that forms another section going elsewhere? Possibly not as there's no signal going OUT of that section.

I'm guessing there should be something in the middle which would control access. I'm just thinking of the Aylesbury station which is sort of similar to this layout. I've been staring at the aerial shots and I can see signals in similar positions. No idea what type/aspects though.

[Glorious NSE]

 

So here's a starter for ten

 

Not a bad start. Reds are usually on the bottom btw.

 

 

• Should the bay platform be a two aspect? If there's a signal controlling entry to it, would that be part of another signal somewhere?

No i'd say you have that right as a 3 aspect, it's doing the same thing (allowing a train to depart on the main line to the right) as the two signals below it on the main lines, so it needs to be the same spec.

 

• I'm pretty sure the depot should have a ground signal to let trains out. But what about letting them in? Should there be one on each track in the depot? As it's sort of self-contained, would it need such things for movements into the headshunt?

Yes to the signal for exit - although it would be at the toe of the point if possible, located there you could stop the loco half way up the point to wait for exit which wouldn't be useful!

 

One query would be related to era, if the signals are installed post privatisation then you may actually have another normal 3-aspect signal there instead of a shunt signal, modern practise is to provide a running signal if you can't see the next signal down the line straight away (as it's offscene here that would be the case) - if the signals were installed before privatisation that it may just be a shunt signal though, plenty still like that.

 

You're right you would probably want a shunt signal from the headshunt (clear of the point to the main lines) into the depot. That would let you hold a loco in the headshunt whilst another arrives/departs.

 

Would you envisage moves from the station, then reversing into the depot? If so you need a shunt signal to do that on the main line.

 

Ref signals inside the depot - some modern depot's are fully signalled, but i'd suggest most aren't, you'd have a stop board just past the point and manual points to access the five tracks.

 

I'm wondering where the sections lie. Would it be one in the station, then another from the station signals through the points to the last signal, then that forms another section going elsewhere? Possibly not as there's no signal going OUT of that section.

 

Not quite following you there, there would be further un-modelled signals off-scene going off into the distance? The 3 aspect signalling would be a continuous series of blocks headed off into the distance?

 

 

[David Rickard]

Not a bad start. Reds are usually on the bottom btw.

 

 

D'oh!

 

No i'd say you have that right as a 3 aspect, it's doing the same thing (allowing a train to depart on the main line to the right) as the two signals below it on the main lines, so it needs to be the same spec.

 

That's good then.

 

Yes to the signal for exit - although it would be at the toe of the point if possible, located there you could stop the loco half way up the point to wait for exit which wouldn't be useful!

 

One query would be related to era, if the signals are installed post privatisation then you may actually have another normal 3-aspect signal there instead of a shunt signal, modern practise is to provide a running signal if you can't see the next signal down the line straight away (as it's offscene here that would be the case) - if the signals were installed before privatisation that it may just be a shunt signal though, plenty still like that.

 

You're right you would probably want a shunt signal from the headshunt (clear of the point to the main lines) into the depot. That would let you hold a loco in the headshunt whilst another arrives/departs.

 

Would you envisage moves from the station, then reversing into the depot? If so you need a shunt signal to do that on the main line.

 

Ref signals inside the depot - some modern depot's are fully signalled, but i'd suggest most aren't, you'd have a stop board just past the point and manual points to access the five tracks.

 

I'll move that signal up a bit, and add one to the headshunt for sure.

 

Although this is modern era, it's something built in pre-privatisation days, so the shunt signals will be what I'll use. I like the idea of having one controlling the depot. I guess that shunt signal would sit on the toe of the points entering the depot?

 

Not quite following you there, there would be further un-modelled signals off-scene going off into the distance? The 3 aspect signalling would be a continuous series of blocks headed off into the distance?

 

Yes, basically.

 

I've fixed up the drawing:

 

[43110andyb]

This is how i would signal the layout. The shunts on the platform signals allow movement from the platform roads up to the limit of shunts, and then either into the depot or back to a different platform (technically theatre/stencils would be required). Moving the shunt signal back from the middle of the junction also allows easier operation (no fouling of points by locos stood next to signal). Hope this helps.

[beast66606]

All you need now are feathers ... (the strange thing pointing to the side you mentioned above )

[43110andyb]

Right, yes, I think the station would be bi-directional, but the tracks entering would be single direction.

 

Would it need any feathers if the station only was Bi-di ? . The signalled routes out of the station are all to one road. I would think the signal from the bottom road would need one to enter the platform beneath the bay. I quite like the idea of gigantic route arms though on my diagram

[Glorious NSE]

Moving the shunt signal back from the middle of the junction also allows easier operation (no fouling of points by locos stood next to signal).

 

I think i'd put it clear as well, but I think this is one of those things where on the prototype it could be either way - I think how David had it is also potentially correct.

 

Having it clear has the advantage that you can stand a loco clear whilst something else arrives (or goes into the bay for instance) - probably the kind of thing that's more useful on a busy model than a usually much quieter real location.

 

I suspect it's easier to set the routes up as well if it's clear as it doesn't become an intermediate signal in the middle of a route that way.

 

Feathers? One signal definately needs some...

[beast66606]

Would it need any feathers if the station only was Bi-di ? . The signalled routes out of the station are all to one road. I would think the signal from the bottom road would need one to enter the platform beneath the bay. I quite like the idea of gigantic route arms though on my diagram

 

There are several that could have feathers, several which could have stencils and one which could have a theatre but at least one signal needs at least one of the above

[hairyhandedfool]

This is how i would signal the layout. The shunts on the platform signals allow movement from the platform roads up to the limit of shunts, and then either into the depot or back to a different platform (technically theatre/stencils would be required). Moving the shunt signal back from the middle of the junction also allows easier operation (no fouling of points by locos stood next to signal). Hope this helps.

 

 

Just for clarity, the 'Shunt' signals on the main aspect signals can't show red. I know the diagram is just to show location of the shunt signals and are probably just 'cut and paste' artwork, but I think this point should be made. Also, there would be no LOS signs in the normal direction of travel as they are technically 'stop boards'. The limit of shunt for moves in the normal direction of travel would be limited by the normal signals for movement in that direction. Again, it is of little consequence in this case as they are off scene, but just a note incase others are reading this and planning them on their layout.

[The Stationmaster]

Just for clarity, the 'Shunt' signals on the main aspect signals can't show red. I know the diagram is just to show location of the shunt signals and are probably just 'cut and paste' artwork, but I think this point should be made. Also, there would be no LOS signs in the normal direction of travel as they are technically 'stop boards'. The limit of shunt for moves in the normal direction of travel would be limited by the normal signals for movement in that direction. Again, it is of little consequence in this case as they are off scene, but just a note incase others are reading this and planning them on their layout.

 

Similarly in some installations on some Regions the use of subsidiary signals (below a main aspect) for movements in the right direction would be unusual, especially if the signal in advance is not readily sighted.

[43110andyb]

There are several that could have feathers, several which could have stencils and one which could have a theatre but at least one signal needs at least one of the above

This could be the answer to our problems , it even has the red aspect at the top. (even if I cant get all the writing at the bottom of this photo)

[David Rickard]

Right, taking into consideration the above, I've made amendments.

 

Based on what I've read about the feathers, I've put a couple in.

 

 

The one on the far right makes sense, so it can send you either into the platform straight ahead, or cross you onto the other platform (for a returning train, or for the bay). I wonder if it needs two feathers, one for the through platform, and another for the bay?

 

The one on the left I'm not 100% sure about. Normal running out of that platform would be to cross over anyway; I'm not sure if it should be there.

 

I've tidied up the shunt signals on the main aspects too. It actually makes sense to me though, looking at the signals, where they'd let trains go and what they'd control.

 

Going to be a fun one to wire up!

[Glorious NSE]

The one on the far right makes sense, so it can send you either into the platform straight ahead, or cross you onto the other platform (for a returning train, or for the bay). I wonder if it needs two feathers, one for the through platform, and another for the bay?

 

Well wondered. Yes two feathers to the right as two diverging routes, the top angled one towards the second through platform and a horizontal one to the bay. Towards the yard would be signalled with the shunt head so no feather for that one.

 

The one on the left I'm not 100% sure about. Normal running out of that platform would be to cross over anyway; I'm not sure if it should be there.

 

It's another era-related thing really, modern practise would probably include it even though as you said it would always come on when that signal is cleared, older colour light practise would put more faith in the driver knowing where he's going and not bother to give him the visual reminder.

 

It actually makes sense to me though, looking at the signals, where they'd let trains go and what they'd control.

 

Excellent!

[David Rickard]

Hurrah! Well I think I'm actually getting it.

 

I might keep the left hand feather. The Aylesbury station has one, and I'm loosely (very loosely) basing it on that. It was all re-signalled in the 90s, so I'm guessing they were doing it then, either that or they've added it in recent years.

 

So here's a 'final' version. I think it looks pretty spiffy