They're here....

[John M Upton]

Looks like I and my colleagues will soon have some 'new' toys to play with

 

http://chrisisnewandoldrailpics.fotopic.net/p62509913.html

 

The first 313 has reached Brighton all be it still in dealer stock purple presumably for the Lovers Walk engineers to give it the once over. Still at least its a fairly basic beast mechanically, no air con, computer controls or any technical guff to go wrong, indeed the only trouble I forsee is there is no toilet either...

 

Meanwhile word reaches me that Southern/GatEx have also treated themselves to a new Class 73 for Christmas, 73109 'Battle of Britain' has defected from SWT.

[Bruce Depot]

Hi John

What are they going to use these on and how many are you getting?

These units must have done a few miles since being built!!!

 

cheers

Keith

[Steadfast]

Interesting John! I wonder how they'll look in Southern colours? Or will they retain Silverlink colours? I presume 73109 will get GatEx red and white, it'd look nice in Southern green and grey

 

cheers

 

jo

 

 

[John M Upton]

Reportedly 313101 through to 313117 and 313119. Short distance coastway stoppers, i.e. the West Worthing's, Seaford's and Hove Shuttles are up first from middle of 2010 with a possibility of them spreading their wings onto the Bognor/Barnham/Littlehampton/Portsmouth & Southsea circuit later.

 

They are limited in the total journey length they can operate due to the lack of toilet apparently. They appear to be fairly solidly built units and with the full internal refurbishment they will be getting at Wolverton I expect they will be good for a few more years yet.

 

Still would have preffered an add on order for three car Class 378's with Southern interior 3+2 spec though, would have made them compatible with the 377's if anything went wrong and needed a tow back to Brighton!!

[Flying Pig]

They are limited in the total journey length they can operate due to the lack of toilet apparently. They appear to be fairly solidly built units and with the full internal refurbishment they will be getting at Wolverton I expect they will be good for a few more years yet.

3-NOL perhaps? I believe they have camshaft-operated resistance control too, so they should be right at home on the Southern.

[Southernman46]

Yup - the Worthing & Falmer yobbos are going to love them !!

 

Amazing to think of them as 33 years old - they ran parallel with the Deltics !!!

 

Oldest EMU's currently in everyday service ??

 

(IOW don't count - they're underground trains)

[kintbury jon]

I'm surprised they haven't taken on the spare 508's that connex ditched - are these still stored?

[Son of Ceptic]

Yup - the Worthing & Falmer yobbos are going to love them !!

 

Amazing to think of them as 33 years old - they ran parallel with the Deltics !!!

 

Oldest EMU's currently in everyday service ??

 

(IOW don't count - they're underground trains)

Im sorry Southernman46 ? Oldest EMU`S currently in everyday service ? 313`S are mere nippers compared to the 3-CIG`s

[John M Upton]

Im sorry Southernman46 ? Oldest EMU`S currently in everyday service ? 313`S are mere nippers compared to the 3-CIG`s

 

But by the time the 313's are in service, the Lymington CIG's will be gone sadly... Given me an idea though, see if we can't persuade the painters to accidentally outshop one 313 in BR green and another in blue and grey...

 

By the way, 313108 has been out exploring its new home on Monday, it was given a quick once around the block to Newhaven via Haywards Heath and Falmer but had returned to its Montpelier Sidings resting place by the evening.

[John M Upton]

I'm surprised they haven't taken on the spare 508's that connex ditched - are these still stored?

 

Yes but the six serviceable ones are still given a run up and down every so often to keep them working. It is however a mystery why these are not used.

 

Interestingly the two stored ex Overground 508/3's (508302/3) are as I type this in the process of being returned to Eastleigh, something seems to be lined up for them it would appear although that may just be overhaul for Merseyrail use.

[Southernman46]

Yes but the six serviceable ones are still given a run up and down every so often to keep them working. It is however a mystery why these are not used.

 

 

Cos they're rubbish - speaking from experience as one who had to get them into service originally back in 1980

[Son of Ceptic]

Interestingly the two stored ex Overground 508/3's (508302/3) are as I type this in the process of being returned to Eastleigh, something seems to be lined up for them it would appear although that may just be overhaul for Merseyrail use.

 

I dont like the sound of that. I hope SWT havn`t changed their minds about 158`s on the Lymmy branch !

[cornelius]

Does Brighton have some kind of karmic bad debt that requires it to take on the rest of the network's cast offs? First the useless 442s and now this

[pete_mcfarlane]

They are limited in the total journey length they can operate due to the lack of toilet apparently.

On the GN they work Letchworth - KGX/Moorgate services, which must be about 40 miles. A bit too far for a unit with no toilet.

 

Even Pacers have toilets. I'm assuming that 313s don't as they have to work through the tube tunnels to Moorgate and there were no suitable toilets in 1976 when they were built.

[Karhedron]

Does Brighton have some kind of karmic bad debt that requires it to take on the rest of the network's cast offs? First the useless 442s and now this

I can only speak as a passenger but I always found the 442s to be suprisingly comfortable. They had IC70 seeting IIRC which has never been bettered for comfort (something Bombardier could learn from).

[DerekEm8]

Does Brighton have some kind of karmic bad debt that requires it to take on the rest of the network's cast offs? First the useless 442s and now this

 

I think we 'up Norff' (ie Northern) hold the record for 'karmic bad debt' for cast offs - 142's and 15xxx's anyone? Even the proposed electrification is to be with refurbished cast offs.

[Karhedron]

Even Pacers have toilets. I'm assuming that 313s don't as they have to work through the tube tunnels to Moorgate and there were no suitable toilets in 1976 when they were built.

It was a policy decision on unit designation in the late 70s and early 80s. The 313s were designated "Inner Suburban" which meant bucket seats, no toilets and no first class. The rest of the PEP derived stock were the same even though they did not have Moorgate tunnel to contend with.

 

The next grade up were "Outer suburban" which included better seats, toilets and 1st class, even though they still had 3+2 seating.

[John M Upton]

It is looking like the day out round trip with the 313 which interestingly includes technically closed Newhaven Marine may be a regular thing as it was out again today. I spent half an hour of my day off earlier playing in MSPaint and conjured this 'artists impression of how it would look assuming that the standard 377 design livery is used:

 

 

Of course this is purely speculative, there is every chance I would have thought of a few making it into service still in Silverlink purple/green as did the 442's in SWT colours for a while. Watch this space methinks!!

 

Need a OO scale one - how good or bad was the old MTK kit?

[cornelius]

I can only speak as a passenger but I always found the 442s to be suprisingly comfortable. They had IC70 seeting IIRC which has never been bettered for comfort (something Bombardier could learn from).

 

It doesn't really matter how comfortable the seats are when they break down a lot and can't keep to timings.

[Guest Phil]

Yes but the six serviceable ones are still given a run up and down every so often to keep them working. It is however a mystery why these are not used.

 

 

Cos they're rubbish - speaking from experience as one who had to get them into service originally back in 1980

 

 

Well if the 508s are rubbish, are the 313s that different to not be "rubbish" ? Is the traction control system radically different between 313 and 508 ? Surely the bodywork, doors etc are very similar ?

 

Have they left the "aerial" on the roof John ?

[Ian J.]

I wondered what was going to happen to these as they've been slowly ousted from the London Overground services...

[Claude_Dreyfus]

There's something about the Coastway lines around Brighton and using other lines cast-off. Were not the 4-CORs pensioned off on these lines, as well as the BILs, LAVs etc? Still, it will be something slightly different, and I must say the livery looks alright on the 313; then again, the Southern Livery would look good on pretty much anything!

 

With reference to the lack of toilet facilities, none of the class 455s have these, and some of the duties they cover are fairly long.

 

Still, nothing like the 1960's when all sorts of stuff was used on the Brighton holiday trains... Two hours home in a train made up of 4-SUB units (no toilets) after spending the afternoon in the pub! Can't be fun

[frobisher]

With reference to the lack of toilet facilities, none of the class 455s have these, and some of the duties they cover are fairly long.

 

I seem to recall that around the time of introduction, there were reports of severe corrosion in internal corridor connections because of their use as ad hoc urinals by desperate commuters.

[Southernman46]

Does Brighton have some kind of karmic bad debt that requires it to take on the rest of the network's cast offs? First the useless 442s and now this

 

Well in the past - it was generally considered amongst the Eastern & Western Division enclaves of the Southern, that Victoria - Brighton constitued a "long shunt" rather than a proper mainline

[Karhedron]

Need a OO scale one - how good or bad was the old MTK kit?

Ah, happy memories, the 313 was my first MTK kit. In fact it was my first kit-built train at all, bit of a baptism of fire really.

 

It was typical of most MTK EMUs in that it was very rough and ready. The aluminium bodyshell was not the right profile for the PEP-derived stock so I ended up flattening it out and reprofiling it to get something more reminiscent of that distinctive tumblehome. You had to cut the pantograph well yourself in the roof with a hacksaw (mine was not quite deep enough) you also had to cut out and score the doors yourself.

 

Getting a decent model out of the kit too a fair bit of work but was not impossible. I managed to build it at age 14 so I am sure a more experienced modeller could do better. Here are some pics of the finished product.

 

 

 

I believe they have since been re-released by NNK (No Nonsense Kits) who have taken over and revamped much of the old MTK stable. The kit is listed as the class 507 so you will still need to cut the pantograph well and source your own pantograph. The good news is that the body profile issue appears to have been corrected. Sounds like the cab castings are the original MTK ones though which are a little rough as you can see from my photos.

 

http://www.nnkits.co.uk/Revised_MTK.htm

 

Might be worth waiting for Captain Electra's forthcoming kit. It is planned as N gauge but a 00 version is a possibilty. Might be worth signing up for it on the website.

 

http://www.warr.biz/erg/313.htm