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Signalling help for short thin and soon to be pointed


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Hello everyone. As some of you might have seen I'm building a small LMR branchline, posted in the layouts forum. This is soon to be extended to include a junction with a freight only branch. The signalling I put on the original board, shown in the diagram as the central rectangle, was, well to be honest just to make it look nice as if I knew what I was doing, alas this is not the case!!

 

The track is imagined to be the remains of a once busy station, many lines having been lifted/disused. The layout of the loop line which isn't modelled as yet is deliberate in that it means trains/locos have to keep entering the scenic board when running round and going up the branch.

 

Anyway with the extension board coming along soon I thought I should signal it properly and so I look for help here from some of the renown signalling experts that we have amongst us. All comments and help are gratefully welcome!post-7259-0-28025400-1340365026_thumb.gif

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  • RMweb Gold

What time period ?

 

Are you assuming that some freight arrives from Wigan, runs round and then takes the branch ? (and vice versa)

 

Is "Bolton" passenger only ?

 

How busy is the modelled "branch" ?

 

PS - Is this based on the Lancashire Triangle ?

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Hello Beast! I knew you wouldn't let me down!

Here's the extra info to help your deliberation:

The time period is between 1975 and 1979.

The branch line west is to a coal concentration depot somewhere in the westhoughton area. Speed limited to 15 mph and with a weight restriction that bans anything other than shunters. The freight only line east serves a drinks factory is single line only and has no significant weight restrictions.

The Bolton line is passenger and freight, as is the Wigan line. Traffic up the two freight only lines comes from and goes to the Wigan direction only. Some freight runs straight through from Wigan to Bolton and returns in the opposite direction (mostly ABN/Speedlink trip workings to/from the Warrington area) (I think though I'm not sure if this is practical/possible in reality)

Both freight only branches have only at best two trains a day in both directions.

The "main" line has a roughly 2 hourly DMU service each way and occasion through freights. There is one parcels service (obviously it doesn't call here) from the Wigan direction to Bolton in the evening.

 

It's not based on the lancashire triangle, but it is inspired by it, for instance all my coal trains originate from Howe Bridge or Parsonage collieries (now Sainsbury's) and I used to live practically on the site of the trackbed (in a house though, not just sleeping on the rails!) and now I live about 5 minutes away from 'Atherton Bag Lane' and about 10 minutes from Plodder lane MPD, though you've got to have eagle eyes to spot any trace of either. The tracks on the new extension will run either side of some flashes (though mine will be little more than a big pond) which are pretty common round here due to all the closed mines.

 

Sorry if I've rambled on there a bit

 

Paul

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  • RMweb Gold

Sounds good. Anything Lancashire Triangle, or inspired by, is good by me.

 

You could (should) work the connection from a ground frame, given the sparsity of the service, so the signal box could be modelled as derelict and some old signal structures could be left lying around, for example a bracket controlling the main -> freight connection, but with no arms on it.

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Arrrgh, don't say that!! I've just started work on the signal box interior and made my home signal work! Would or could the signal box be needed to control the points and loop on the Bolton end? Perhaps there's a bit of an upsurge in traffic, say a train in each direction each hour? I really like the idea of it being derelict, but am loathe to get rid of the work I've done on the box.........

Would it be likely that the box could be manned part time, and lock out of use at night and weekends?

 

Nevertheless I really appreciate your help!

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  • RMweb Gold

Not really my region but is it possible that the GF could be the old box, there are a few examples down south, just change the nameboard to xxxxxxx Groundframe?

Alternatively have the old box being used byP-way or S&T as a store or mess room if this is remote from a main station and depot.

I suspect the box would be more likely to be up by the points that are off scene to the right from when the loop was in regular use, if you're going to model that you could always move it.

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  • RMweb Gold

Not really my region but is it possible that the GF could be the old box, there are a few examples down south, just change the nameboard to xxxxxxx Groundframe?

Alternatively have the old box being used byP-way or S&T as a store or mess room if this is remote from a main station and depot.

The LM did use old'boxes as shunting frames - really depended on the circumstances (and no doubt the condition and location of the structure) but I think by this period they were being a lot more careful with the pennies so open ground frames came more into favour.

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  • RMweb Gold

Arrrgh, don't say that!! I've just started work on the signal box interior and made my home signal work! Would or could the signal box be needed to control the points and loop on the Bolton end? Perhaps there's a bit of an upsurge in traffic, say a train in each direction each hour? I really like the idea of it being derelict, but am loathe to get rid of the work I've done on the box.........

Would it be likely that the box could be manned part time, and lock out of use at night and weekends?

 

Nevertheless I really appreciate your help!

 

OK - I'll draw some signals for you later - don't go too far with the interior though, we don't know the lever frame colours yet !

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Thanks for that! I won't paint any levers til you say so! It's the Hornby midland one, that I'm doing up with new opening windows, a better handrail, a stovepipe chimney and new guttering. It should be a LNWR one I know but I already had the midland one and now I can't find a LNWR one for sale anywhere. Long term I'll build one, the interior on this will be easily removable so it can be transplanted later and following that I'll replace the goods shed with a more representative one of the area, but at the moment the story is that this is an ex-MR line that was built to access the south lancs coalfield.

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  • RMweb Gold

Tuebrook (near Edge Hill, Liverpool) which was on a pure LNWR line had a Midland style cabin provided by BR in the 1950s so a good reasonably local excuse !

 

 

The "Barrow Hill" box I assume ? - that's not unlike Tuebrook

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That's fantastic, thank you very much, though I do have another question.

The junction signal in the Bolton direction will have to be mounted on the platform, since the points are directly after the overbridge, when signals are mounted on platforms can you see the balance weights or are these hidden below? I've done a couple of google searches but I can't find an image that's clear enough to tell.

Oh and one last thing before I stop pestering, the shunt signals on the junction signal, are they

i) discs

ii) small arms with horizontal red white stripes

iii) small arms with vertical red white stripes??

 

Many thanks for all this help, I did say I was a signalling no-hoper!

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Sorry, this may be a bit off-topic but reading this interesting thread reminds me how complex signalling can be here and how sparse it is on the Austrian n.g. that I model. If it were an OeBB section your layout would have four fixed Trapeztafel - a board that tells in-coming services to 'stop and proceed' as they say on the London Underground - and indicators on the point mechs., the rest would be left to the driver's eyesight. I can quite see that this level of mechanical signalling adds interest for the builder and operator, though. Have fun with it all!

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  • RMweb Gold

Sorry, this may be a bit off-topic but reading this interesting thread reminds me how complex signalling can be here and how sparse it is on the Austrian n.g. that I model. If it were an OeBB section your layout would have four fixed Trapeztafel - a board that tells in-coming services to 'stop and proceed' as they say on the London Underground - and indicators on the point mechs., the rest would be left to the driver's eyesight. I can quite see that this level of mechanical signalling adds interest for the builder and operator, though. Have fun with it all!

The signalling that Beast has drawn could be a bit simpler in the shunting signal area but that varied with period and between the companies and between BR Regions - for example if that place was on the Western in that time slot - and assuming there was signalbox there at all by then - it would have no double disc shunting signals and at least one of the connections would be worked by a ground frame.

 

And of course some British n.g railways had even less in the way of signalling than was the case in Austria - the world contains some fascinating differences when it comes to signalling principles and practice.

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  • RMweb Gold

That's fantastic, thank you very much, though I do have another question.

The junction signal in the Bolton direction will have to be mounted on the platform, since the points are directly after the overbridge, when signals are mounted on platforms can you see the balance weights or are these hidden below? I've done a couple of google searches but I can't find an image that's clear enough to tell.

Oh and one last thing before I stop pestering, the shunt signals on the junction signal, are they

i) discs

ii) small arms with horizontal red white stripes

iii) small arms with vertical red white stripes??

 

Many thanks for all this help, I did say I was a signalling no-hoper!

 

Discs for the shunts, except the ones on the post with main arms, these would be miniature arms, vertical white stripes.

 

As StationMaster says it's over signalled and in reality it's likely to be ground frame worked, I've put most of the shunts in so you can choose to have them on the layout.

 

The balance weights would probably be elevated however I've seen some with them below platform level, so take your pick, you could make the shunts (6/7) a single arm if you like, I've added both arms so you off scene shunt moves can be implied by different signals.

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..... 'stop and proceed' as they say on the London Underground.........

 

Not relevant in the context of this thread as "stop and proceed" (sometimes described as trip and proceed) is a method of working under certain failure conditions.

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