RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted August 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 16, 2012 If I understand it correctly the Airfix/Mainline/Hornby B set coaches aren't actually an accurate rendition of any one diagram but a generic amalgam of this type? I'm trying to hone my skills on relatively cheap coaches. I've painted a couple BR crimson, so 1950's well worn look is what I'm trying to achieve, and have just bought some laser glaze windows. Whether they are, or are not, accurate, I'd like to try and get something that looks reasonable, with only modest skills. Can anyone suggest which compartments (if any) would look best with the red triangular 'No Smoking' window transfer of the era? I'm assuming only a small proportion of compartments would be non-smoking at the time and I don't really want to sprinkle red triangles around haphazardly. Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 They are quite accurate renditions of diagram E* , or E if you change the bogies. Errors are a window too many on one side and recessed door handles represented as a bump. The headstocks should be straight and the buffers and bogies could do with attention. I'll check and report back on diagram nos and no smoking compartments. * EDIT see later post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Ostensibly dia E147 (with the window error etc as noted by Il Grifone). Here's the Comet version, with two no smoking compartments, one of them being the first class: http://www.cometmode...atpic.php/8/648 P.S. Il Grifone - window error 'on one side' - isn't it both? (I haven't got my old Airfixs at the mo. Sorry for the above, it was complete cobblers - knickers in a twist. The Airfix/Hornby is diagram E140. See The Fatadder's blog: http://www.rmweb.co....0-b-set-part-1/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted August 16, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 16, 2012 Thanks both for that. Ref the window (or not) AIUI if you have a pair of B set coaches in front of you coupled normally, then the right hand coach should only have the window in the guards van door but not the wall. The LH coach should have window in door and wall (of course I'm no GW expert and no doubt there are exceptions to the rules!). ie the windows are 'handed so when you look at the set from the other side you get exactly the same effect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted August 16, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 16, 2012 Whilst the experts are assembled here, may I ask a supplementary Q? In GW Branch Lines 1955-65 by the late C J Gammell there's a pic at St Ives (Plate 71). The nearest coach is W6459W and the next coach seems to be similar design. To my inexpert eyes these look like the Airfix B set coach, but only 6 roof vents (ie 1 over each compartment - none over the van areas). This looks like a simple conversion to me (just chop off the 3 vents and repaint). Do you know if this is very different from the Airfix model? (Accepting the aforementioned faults). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted August 16, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 16, 2012 Me again - well it's a few mins since I posted. Just noticed an anomoly, or maybe it's different diagrams. On the Comet link posted above, one window in the pair of double doors is blanked. On the Shawplan site for their Laserglaze for the B Sets, they have the window next to the guard's van door blanked off. Am becoming less of a GW expert by the minute but my excuse is I model BR/LT! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 It is with trepidation that I take issue with Miss P but the Airfix B set as it comes is a good model [subject to the errors listed by Il Grifone] of E140 and can be converted to E145 by fitting 9 ft wb bogies. It will benefit from recesses where the door and grab handles are located. A few months ago there was a discussion related to these coaches on drilling square holes. Russell's Pictorial Record Vol 2, that most poorly edited of books, places a picture of an E140 alongside coverage of the E147. Metr0land, you mean plate 171!. It's an E140. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted August 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 16, 2012 Russell's Pictorial Record Vol 2, that most poorly edited of books, places a picture of an E140 alongside coverage of the E147. A bit harsh. I could cite some railway books (particularly one Ian Allan atlas) that were far worse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted August 16, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 16, 2012 It is with trepidation that I take issue with Miss P but the Airfix B set as it comes is a good model [subject to the errors listed by Il Grifone] of E140 and can be converted to E145 by fitting 9 ft wb bogies. It will benefit from recesses where the door and grab handles are located. A few months ago there was a discussion related to these coaches on drilling square holes. Russell's Pictorial Record Vol 2, that most poorly edited of books, places a picture of an E140 alongside coverage of the E147. Metr0land, you mean plate 171!. It's an E140. Chris Quite right it's 171. I was going to stick with 7ft bogies for now so I've got a reasonable chance of producing something! One of the mags tends to list 'how to do it' articles in terms of 'no of screwdrivers' worth of difficulty'. I'm prob only capable of 2 screwdrivers at the moment in terms of 'bashing expertise', though am confident enough with painting and weathering to say 3. Hence the need to try and get a result that pushes me a bit, but not so far I give up! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 It is with trepidation that I take issue with Miss P You were quite right to do so, Chris, and inbetween postings and looking at the Comet pic, I kept thinking "summats not quite right", so I trollied off, and realised I had made a right pigs ear of my initial response. Now duly edited! Anyway, now that we're expanding the subject (typical RMweb-styleee), it might be a good idea Metroland if you transferred this thread into the 'GWR Rolling Stock - model and prototype' section, where you are might get a wider audience for your St Ives enquiry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 It is with trepidation that I take issue with Miss P but the Airfix B set as it comes is a good model [subject to the errors listed by Il Grifone] of E140 and can be converted to E145 by fitting 9 ft wb bogies. Correct. The E147 (as per the Comet kit) is a flat-ended 57' coach. E140 and E145 were bow-ended 60' coaches, with the Airfix B set being a representation of the E140. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Finally finished watching "Kansas Pacific" on TCM (and trying to ignore buckeyes and air brakes etc. and that the line's title was Kansas Pacific Railway (later)), so I could go and get my copy of Russell. E140 and 145 of course, as stated. From Appendix vol.1, starting from the third class end :- Smoking x2, Non-smoking, smoking, non smoking (First), smoking. The LH coach of the pair does not have the Guard's window in the bodyside - just the door droplight. The photo as built, shows a full complement of ventilators, but this does not exclude their later removal Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted August 16, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 16, 2012 Thanks all for your responses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
naugytrax Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Russell's Pictorial Record Vol 2, that most poorly edited of books, places a picture of an E140 alongside coverage of the E147. I think it may have been corrected in later editions. In my copy of Russell, pub. 1973 and reprinted 1990, is all in one volume. I can find two pictures of bow-ended 'B' coaches, and one is described as dia. E.129 so it's probably not part of this discussion. The other is captioned 'E.140' and the accompanying text talks about a pair to diagram E.140, numbered 6894 and 6895. So I was totally baffled about where was the supposed error, until I noticed that the Index still refers to the picture of E.140 as E.147! In my volume at least, there doesn't seem to be any coverage of E.147. Now a question: were all the 'B' sets close-coupled? If I were to try to improve the Airfix coaches by fitting straight headstocks at both ends, should I replace the buffers at the inner ends or just omit them, like on E.129? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 To answer part of the question, not all B sets were close coupled. Some of E147 had normal buffers at each end and worked singly. E157 worked either singly or in sets with a brake composite at each end and thirds in between, eg the Avonmouth lines. Two of the E161s worked as a pair to Highworth, the rest singly. E167, the Hawksworth ones, were largely singles. The last batch, 6276-85, were allocated to Plymouth and intended to work in pairs but were soon separated. I've just tried looking up which of the earlier sets - E116, E129, E135, E140 and E145 - had buffers at the inner ends and which did not. Guess what, there is contradictory info. It is clear that these sets had permanent couplings so would not have been seen running singly but I don't know what type of permanent couplings they had. Someone will though ... Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Whilst the experts are assembled here, may I ask a supplementary Q? In GW Branch Lines 1955-65 by the late C J Gammell there's a pic at St Ives (Plate 71). The nearest coach is W6459W and the next coach seems to be similar design. To my inexpert eyes these look like the Airfix B set coach, but only 6 roof vents (ie 1 over each compartment - none over the van areas). This looks like a simple conversion to me (just chop off the 3 vents and repaint). Do you know if this is very different from the Airfix model? (Accepting the aforementioned faults). According to the lot list in Harris, 6459 was an E140 of lot 1407, built in 1930 (the first lot of E140s). As built it was paired with 6457 as a B set for the Bristol area. It is the same diagram as the Airfix model. It is possible that either the first lot was built without the ventilators (there were three lots of E140s and a further lot of E145s), or, in my opinion more likely, the ventilators were removed at some point in the life of the coach. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Tim V's B-set page is the best online reference, and shows two different style of centre coupling (on an E129 and an E147), and says that all but the E116 (bufferless inner ends) had 1'8" inner buffers. But haven't I seen a drawing saying these were 1'0"????? (Am without my books/mags at the moment.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 AFAIK E140/5 had short inner buffers and a bar coupling. Life being short, I intend to leave these alone and just replace the outer headstocks and buffers. A piece of wire (possibly square section) will represent the coupling. 1' 8" does seem too long for the inner buffers. This would only be a fraction shorter than the outer buffers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted August 17, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2012 I've got another pair going through works which I intend to blank off the offending window(s) and also mark as smoking/non-smoking as per Il Grifone's #12 However, I've got ANOTHER question as there seem to be so many variants. I have one pair near completion which I was intending to do as per plate 171 in Chris Gamell's book (right number this time). In this (starting from 3rd end) the futher coach whose number I can't read seems to be: Smoking/Smoking/Smoking/Non/1st-Non/Non/Guards Van. The nearer coach W6460W seems to be Smoking/Smoking/Smoking/Smoking/1st-Smoking/uid/Guard's Van. Can anyone make an educated guess or do you know if the one compartment nearest the Guard would be Smoking or non? Or do I already know that the answer is differing sources quote differing opinions? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 I think it does vary between coaches in a set, otherwise first class passengers would not be able to smoke. I have two pics of an E145 in front of me: they are printed in Russell's GW Coaches Appendix Vol 1, page 150. One coach has five compartments labelled Smoking and only the third class compo with two between it and the inner end of the coach with the welcome non-smoking triangle. The other is labelled [from the inner end] smoking, smoking, non-smoking, smoking, non-smoking First, smoking. What's the betting that they are not all the same?! Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted August 17, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2012 Thanks Chris, I'm starting to think I'm on fairly safe ground keeping 2 coaches in a set different, and claiming there's a prortoype somewhere, sometime in GW/BR(W) practice! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Colin Posted August 17, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 17, 2012 I have a recent Hornby B set in the early BR crimson - does anyone know of a good colour match? I'd like to block the offending windows in one day but if it means having to respray complete bodies, then I'm not so keen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 What a delightfully careworn finish you have achieved! The laserglaze is such an improvement on what the manufacturer provided. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted August 17, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2012 Thanks for your help guys. Like I said, I was too far into the project to fill in the offending window when I discovered it needed doing, but the next pair will be done. Original Airfix: The pair in carmine. I still have a bit of bogie/underframe weathering to add, and I need to sort out the couplings. Both coaches have had Laserglaze fitted – just 44 windows per coach to send you insane….. A close-up of W6459W And a close up of W6460W Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted August 17, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2012 Thanks Chris. In case anyone's wondering how Chris replied before my posting, I just noticed I'd put the same pic in twice, and in my clumsy attempts to rectify, made it worse so I deleted the post, and re-posted it. Simple plans are best aren't they? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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