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GWR / LNER stock compatibility


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I have seen photo evidence of ex-LNER stock (Gresley & Thompson) coupled to BR Mk.1 stock on Western Region trains in the 1950's (even on the Cornish Riviera!), but so far at least I have found no sign of LNER stock coupled directly to ex-GWR stock (the BR Mk.1 stock acts as a filler between LNER & GWR coaches).

Was there an incompatibilty issue between GWR and LNER stock? Or have I simply not found the appropriate evidence? I have seen plenty of photos with GWR/LMS and GWR/SR stock together.

I'm sure someone out there will have an answer to this one - please let me know if I can run a Hawksworth BCK and a Gresley SK together.

Many thanks.

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Easier to couple LNER stock with Pullman gangways and buckeye couplings to Mk1s than to GWR stock with the older type of gangway (so it needed ad adaptor) and - in many cases - screw couplings. Nothing (except for probable restrictions on some of the more specialised vehicles - without checking to confirm) to prevent them being coupled - just that it was a lot of messing about so (I suspect) wasn't undertaken lightly.

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Never say never! Many GW and, I guess, LMS corridor coaches had gangway adaptors fitted to enable them to couple to stock fitted with Pullman gangways such as BR Mk 1s, Gresleys and most SR coaches. The Masokits detailing kit for the Hornby Hawksworths includes parts for a gangway adaptor [it's in my 'courage awaited' pile]. I will look out for evidence hext time I am trying to find something else in my book collection. Let others do likewise!

 

Chris

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One thing has always intrigued me, is why would ex-LNER stock be added to WR Paddington-West Country expresses - quite often just a single coach either at the head or tail of a train of BR/WR stock. I could understand it if the train was to a Midlands destination such as Birmingham or Wolverhampton - on the other hand by the mid-50's I guess stock was mixed around between regions much more. Any views from the working timetable experts?

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I'd guess for strengthening. If a depot was short of stock, especially in high summer, the foreman would have no qualms in "borrowing" a foreign coach. Even GW coaches, many of which were too big to stray too far, got borrowed by other lines. The British Transport film "This Is York" has a shot of a Hawksworth in the formation of the North Briton and a friend of mine has a pic of a GW coach in a Chester - Rhyl local. Paignton used to end up with a dozen spare LM coaches every week in the summer and I bet they were put to good use.

 

Chris

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One thing has always intrigued me, is why would ex-LNER stock be added to WR Paddington-West Country expresses - quite often just a single coach either at the head or tail of a train of BR/WR stock. I could understand it if the train was to a Midlands destination such as Birmingham or Wolverhampton - on the other hand by the mid-50's I guess stock was mixed around between regions much more. Any views from the working timetable experts?

A lot of Gresley and Thompson stock with buckeyes and Pullman gangways was displaced from the ECML by new BR Mk1 stock. I have a picture in a magazine which shows a Gresley coach coupled to an SR 3-coach set on the S&D at Templecombe.

 

If a depot was short of stock, especially in high summer, the foreman would have no qualms in "borrowing" a foreign coach.

 

Summer Saturdays were a goldmine for mixed stock. I once travelled from Ilfracombe to Birmingham Snow Hill on a train of Stanier stock to which a Minehead portion consisting of Gresley stock still with LNER fittings, was added at Taunton.

 

Paignton used to end up with a dozen spare LM coaches every week in the summer and I bet they were put to good use.

 

Likewise the SR stock which ended up at Wolverhampton and was used on Birmingham area locals during the following week

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There was a regular GWR set that worked to Newcastle coupled to LNER stock. Somewhere I have an old Stirling Video production showing this set crossing the bridge at Newcastle. The GWR had gangway adapters that could be fitted. The GWR built specific cross country stock to a narrow width compared to other stock for the inter regional workings.

 

There was a regular through Carriage from Aberdeen (10:20am) to Penzance (7:20 am next day) travelling 794 miles being coupled to various LNER trains before reaching GWR lines at Banbury.

 

The GWR maintained a small selection of locos fitted with Westinghouse air brakes to work some of the older LNER stock when it arrived on GWR metals.

 

Mike Wiltshire

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Many thanks again to the timetable experts - I have always felt a bit guilty about having LNER stock on a South Devon layout but will rest easy now. My layout is inspired by Kingswear, but funnily enough I gather that SR stock hardly ever appeared there, in spite of being just up the track at Exeter and Plymouth - still modellers licence is a wonderful thing, so the presence of some Maunsell stock and the forthcoming LSWR gate stock can be excused!

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One very practical reason for the absence of SR stock from the Kingswear branch is the sheer volume of holiday traffic that the Southern had to handle, which tested its resources to the limit. If you want Maunsells and gate sets on a WR layout you would be much better off looking at Yeovil or the Plymouth area!

 

Chris

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I will look out for evidence hext time I am trying to find something else in my book collection. Let others do likewise!

Chris

Challenge duly taken up and I have looked at the 'Programme of Working of Coaches in Through Trains 11 Sept 1933 to 15 July 1934' - as good a 'horse's mouth' type of source as any other I would think, albeit strictly date limited (but things didn't change much over the years back then I suspect).

 

So we have some interesting information from the route via Banbury -

 

07.33 Southampton Terminus - Newcastle TThSO formed 4 coach LNER set but conveyed a GW Van third and a Compo front from Southampton to Oxford (the GW vehicles were non-ganwayed).

 

17.20 Westbury - York M-S was a remarkable mix of vehicles in terms of origin and destination but only included one GW vehicle which originated at Westbury (for Glasgow) and was formed between two LNER vehicles also originating Westbury - one for Glasgow and one for Edinburgh while bringing up the rear was an LNER Brk Compo from Plymouth North Road for Edinburgh but interestingly shown to be fitted with gangway adaptors. The GW vehicle was a Brk Compo and one of 7949, 7954,7957, 7960, or 7961 and fitted with gangway adaptors at both ends.

The train acquired a 4 or 5 car LNER portion front at Swindon (for York) depending on the day of the week.

 

09.35 Newcastle - Swansea TTHSO was formed with a GW set but conveyed an LNER Van rear as far as Banbury.

 

18.25 York - Swindon M-S Arrived at Banbury with a GW Brk Van leading (for Penzance), then an LNER Brk Compo (for Plymouth, and noted as fitted with 'Pullman Adaptors), then a GW Brk Compo(for Westbury, also noted as fitted with 'Pullman Adaptors) then an LNER set.

 

22.13 York - Bristol M-S conveyed an LNER Brk Van front (for Westbury) but this was only coupled to LNER gangwayed vehicles on certain days of the week (returned in balance on the 17.20 Westbury)

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This is where I disclose my almost total ignorance of LNER coaches. If the LNER BCK that Stationmaster mentions had adaptors, this implies that it did not have Pullman gangways. I would have expected adaptors on the GW vehicles but not on the LNER stock but refer to my opening sentence!

 

Chris

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07.33 Southampton Terminus - Newcastle TThSO formed 4 coach LNER set but conveyed a GW Van third and a Compo front from Southampton to Oxford (the GW vehicles were non-ganwayed).

 

Fascinating , Mike. That's put the cat amongst the pigeons for DN&S fans! (Assuming of course it went via that line.)

 

Btw, by "the GW vehicles were non-gangwayed", does that mean that gangwayed stock was used but the gangways were not connected to the rest of the train? (I can't recall any non-corridor bogie stock working over the DN&S.)

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This is where I disclose my almost total ignorance of LNER coaches. If the LNER BCK that Stationmaster mentions had adaptors, this implies that it did not have Pullman gangways. I would have expected adaptors on the GW vehicles but not on the LNER stock but refer to my opening sentence!

 

Chris

 

Not all of the Gresley stock had Pullman gangways (some was built specifically for inter company services with British Standard gangways) but in 1933 there would still have been a lot of pre-Gresley stock around. It may have been an ex NER vehicle.

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Fascinating , Mike. That's put the cat amongst the pigeons for DN&S fans! (Assuming of course it went via that line.)

 

Btw, by "the GW vehicles were non-gangwayed", does that mean that gangwayed stock was used but the gangways were not connected to the rest of the train? (I can't recall any non-corridor bogie stock working over the DN&S.)

 

That's one I can't really answer - I can check the 1938 service TT but that of course won't answer for 1933 however the 1929 public TT shows times over the DN&S (complete with a request stop at Churn!! and indicates thriough carriages for various destinations in the north and Scotland) but some of the way times are shown in the older public books is not entirely clear - for instance another table shows it as a through train from Reading and it clearly can't be both!

 

ADDENDA

I have now checked the 1938 sevuce TT and the train was still running - albeit as the 07.32 Southampton( - Glasgow) and definitely calling at all stations on the DN& S with a request only stop at Churn.

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07.33 Southampton Terminus - Newcastle TThSO formed 4 coach LNER set but conveyed a GW Van third and a Compo front from Southampton to Oxford (the GW vehicles were non-ganwayed).

Fascinating , Mike. That's put the cat amongst the pigeons for DN&S fans! (Assuming of course it went via that line.)

I believe that this service went via Basingstoke and Reading rather than the DN&S although I am quite prepared to be corrected on this.

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I believe that this service went via Basingstoke and Reading rather than the DN&S although I am quite prepared to be corrected on this.

 

http://mikes.railhistory.railfan.net/r087.html

 

just below picture of Temples Meads suggests it did run via DN&S

 

Also, some interesting info (thanks Mike) for my layout, set between Oxford and Banbury, albeit some years before the period I'd been envisaging.

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I believe that this service went via Basingstoke and Reading rather than the DN&S although I am quite prepared to be corrected on this.

 

See the post directly above yours which said the 1929 public book has it via the DN&S (although as ever in GW public books there was some ambiguity) but the 1938 service book also has it via the DN&S showing it as a through train from Southampton to Glasgow. While it might well have been routed another way in intervening years I would think that unlikely to be honest as much of the timetable structure was relatively static for years.

 

Regrettably I have very limited post war information but in the winter 1950 and '52 services it appears that the equivalent train ran only between Southampton and Didcot - still calling at all stations but decelerated by c.30 minutes overall.

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Not all of the Gresley stock had Pullman gangways (some was built specifically for inter company services with British Standard gangways) but in 1933 there would still have been a lot of pre-Gresley stock around. It may have been an ex NER vehicle.

The Gresley stock with BS gangways was built specifically for Edinburgh - Inverness traffic.

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During WWII the Swansea-Newcastle train became Sundays only. This left a four car Gresley (Brake Third, Third, Comp, Brake Third) set in Wales during the week. The GWR used this set throughout the week coupled to GWR stock on local duties. Unfortunately I can find data determining whether the corridors were connected or not. The set was used on a run to Paddington on at least one occassion as photo evidence shows.

 

I have found a published shot of the 1930's version of this train with Gresley stock strengthened with GWR stock agin, I have no idea if the corridors were actually connected but as the GWR set is formed of cross country vehicles there is every chance they were.

 

Mike Wiltshire

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The Gresley stock with BS gangways was built specifically for Edinburgh - Inverness traffic.

 

Harris "LNER carriages" and "LNER Standard Carriages" also says

 

D40A 16180/1 BTK

D114 24495/9 BTK NE area to LMS e.g. Newcastle - Liverpool

D115 24594- 24601 TK for trains such as Harrogate- Southport & Newcastle - Liverpool

D143 24665-7 BCK Harrogate- Southport & Newcastle - Liverpool

D149 11066-11068 BFK Newcastle/Hull-Liverpool

 

Possibly also dia (Dia 296 CK/297 BTK/298 TK) ,(dia 175 BCK),

 

That's froma quick scan - I may have missed some.

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