LNER meets the LMS

[Dale]

Hi folks,

 

I have up until now, been working on a fictitious north eastern layout plan (BR late 50's to late 60's, OO guage) based in Teesside but am 'considering' my options before things progress any further. Making it all up yourself is quite a daunting task and I am giving some serious thought to basing the layout on a real location or at least a hybrid of several locations. With real track plans, reference photographs etc the great question of what goes where is answered in the main.

 

Whilst I live in the Teesside area and thus have been planning an LNER based layout, i am at heart an LMS man. Growing up in Gloucestershire, my local area was served by the MR back in the day and i used to watch Class 50's going up and down between Bristol and Gloucester. (How I wish I could squeeze 1920's Nailsworth into a 3' wide baseboard...) So if I am rethinking the layout, maybe I can rethink the location to allow me run run 8F's as well as B1's. Perhaps the Leeds or Doncaster area?

 

So i am looking for some prototype suggestions which I can look at for both line and station where a double track mainline and single track branch came together in the north east which will enable me to run both LNER and LMS stock prototypically...

 

Any suggestions?

 

D.

[Bomag]

Garsdale, Appleby, Penrith, Tebay, Riddings Jct (Waverley route).

 

The LNWR, Midland and L&Y got no further North on the East side of the Pennines than Leeds or York. If you want to run an 8F in the NE then I have seen photos of 48xxx numbered ones in the North riding and you can run an 8F as an O6 but its does limit the time scale to a few years in the mid 40's 

 

If it wasn't for the space you could go with Leeds City, New, Wellington!

[Dale]

Most of my stock is ex LNER so I am looking for an area/station which was LNER based but which also saw the arrival of Black 5s, 8f's, Jubilee or Royal Scot class loco's. Through trains would have the loco's changed with the Black 5 conming off then heading to the MPD for coaling and watering before its return working while a B1 takes over its coaches. Did this happen and if so, where. I am thinking of the Leeds area but I am open to ideas...

 

D.

[ChrisM]

Does it have to be east of the Pennines?

 

Somewhere on one of the old GC lines in Lancashire or the CLC lines would spring to mind as a place where this may have happened?

[Dale]

Ideally yes, simply because I have already amassed a lot of stock for the layout at its very much NE based. 4 x J39's for instance. I dont know a great deal about where these lovely little loco's ran but i know they were common around my way. My diesels are mostly 25's and split head code 37's, again loco's common to Thornaby and the area.

 

What about Darlington? There were services from Newcastle to Birmingham, Bristol etc which passed through there? Would theyn have been pulled by ex LMS loco's, scope for the Black 5's or Jubilee's? Problem there of course is i have 9' by 19' and Darlington is HUGE... Looking down the ECML there is Northallerton or Thirsk before we arrive at York. West of the ECML and I honestly dont have a scooby although I know somewhere out that way lay's the fabled land of Leeds.

 

Playing around with Xtrack this morning I can just about fit Grosmont (with a little modelers licence) in my space and that's with the station on one side of the room and the MPD on the other... darlo may be a touch ambitoius

[Flying Pig]

If it wasn't for the space you could go with Leeds City, New, Wellington!

 

 

The east end of Leeds New was much more compact and is well worth investigating as inspiration (have look at the 1921 1:2500 map at www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html).  While you'd need to compress it significantly, I think that could be done without completely losing the character and the eastward lines out on a viaduct with a narrow road and tall buildings behind which is ideal for modelling.

 

LMS locos appeared on trans-pennine services and I believe ran through to Hull, whereas they were changed for an LNER type (often an A3) on the Newcastle services.  From photos I've seen any of the 4-6-0s could appear, sometimes in pairs.  8Fs appeared on freight.

[rodshaw]

Bradford Exchange station had ten platforms, five each for LMS and LNER. Sheds around Bradford, e.g. Low Moor, had a pretty good mix of LMS and LNER locos. Number 4 in the Railway Memories series covers the area.

[Guest Tom F]

As has already been mentioned, generally in BR days anything of LMR origin would have come off at York, hence why I model my interpretation of York MPD (50A). This way I can have Black 5s and Jubilees from the likes of, Bristol Barrow Road, Sheffield Millhouses, Patricroft and Newton Heath etc. I very much doubt you would see ex-LMS locos working North of York.

 

Cheers

[durham light infantry]

Dale, ex LMS locos and stock were used on services which originated in their region, but mainly in steam/diesel transistion years. So trans-pennine and NE-SW trains are viable, there are plenty of photos and film of Jubilees on passenger and Black Fives on the Red Bank vans. When the ex-LMS works were closing to steam repairs North Road took their steam locos in, they were a common site on running in turns locally. There is the famous example of a Crewe Jinty being overhauled at Darlington and going back to work Crewe station pilot with the numbers and totem applied as on a J72!

 

If you want to do a what if? It is little known that one of the main reasons the Stockton and Darlington was aquired by the North Eastern Railway, was to stop the London and North Western buying it. This would have given them direct access to Newcastle via Tow Law/ Consett, an East Coast shipping facility (Middlesbrough) and another trans-pennine route over Stainmore.

A few years ago a friend drew up a plan for an LMS/LNER joint station at Bishop Auckland, which he called Bishop Auckland Victoria.

 

Mike

[Philately]

The Scottish Region - in parts - mixed LMS with LNER, e.g. B1/Black 5 consists on the West Highland and Callander & Oban. Aviemore would be another, as would Inverness. But perhaps that's too far from Teesside?

 

Ivatt 2-6-0s of Class 2 and 4 sizes were built at Darlington and were common on the Stainmore route; Class 4s (from Carlisle?) were used on the Alston branch and also worked coal trains ex Blyth (not sure if they were Blyth North or South engines),and Class 2s and 4s were certainly working between Kelso and Tweedmouth, including the Wooler and Jedburgh branches. I've also seen a pic of a Jubilee (no less) on a goods trip working to Jedburgh! J39s did not, so far as I know, use the Stainmore route because of their axle-loading and the flimsy structure of Belah and Deepdale viaducts. I had a picture in a book on the Newcastle and Carlisle Railway (It now graces the shelves of Barter Books in Alnwick) of a Stanier 4MT tank at Wetheral, on a Newcastle-bound passenger trip. I can remember the 2.10pm ex-Carlisle being pulled by a Kingmoor Britannia in the mid 1960s - it was the return working from Stranraer of the "Paddy" overnight train, and was at that time the only steam passenger working of the day on the Newcastle-Carlisle line.

 

Garsdale (Hawes Junction) and Hawes were both Midland, though the Wensleydale line was North Eastern east of Hawes. At least latterly, trains ran from Northallerton right through to Garsdale. Sadly, this line is not mentioned in my 1960 copy of Bradshaw, so must have closed before then.

 

No doubt there are LOTS of people out there who can come up with better suggestions!

[Edwin_m]

Have you thought about Penistone? 

[JeffP]

What about the GC?

 

Nottingham had LNER locos and also saw Scots, Jubilees, black fives etc. They even had A3's, but not at the same time as the above.

 

Further south, Western Region locos were quite common, Halls, Granges etc got to Leicester and even Nottingham.

[Clive Mortimore]

Look at locations in west and south Yorkshire, Nottinghamshire, Lincolnshire and don't forget Peterborough, East. In all these places the MR and LNWR were in competition with each other for the traffic they could steal from the GNR and GCR, with the added rivalry of the L&YR in Yorkshire.