bill badger Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 After constructing a good number of plastic kits, I'm looking to move on to metal construction. The driving force behind this is a wish to end up building some Comet chassis kits to allow reapir / improvement of a number of my RTR steam locos. On that front I intend to start with a Jinty chassis and then move onto rejuvenating a slight tired Standard 4MT and a Fairburn 2-6-4T with wobbly wheels. Hence I want to end up with some skill and confidence working through brass / nickel silver construction. First though, I want to cut my teeth on something a bit simpler. I have acquired a couple of the Lochgorm LMS/LNER van kits, but have shied away from starting these for a few months. I already have an soldering iron (Antex 50W) and picked up a new small chisel tip, some good quality solder and no-clean flux. I have a glass fibre brush and a set of 'clean' files. I'm looking to avoid any 'major' outlays until I am happy that brass is for me. 1. Can anyone suggest any other good quality kits that would suit a beginner? 2. I could also do with some advice about how to form half-etched rivets; this is the firt step required on the Lochgorm 4mm van kits. The internet searches I have done all seem to say 'go and buy this or that expensive tool'. Any help gratefully received... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 You've pretty much already hit the nail on the head in terms of beginners brass kits in 4mm: the Connoisseur ones used to be the best, but they're no longer available. There isn't a vast range of wagon kits in brass, TBH. Forming rivets is fairly easy even without a tool - take something like a small panel pin (not too sharp a point) and a toffee hammer, place on something like a cutting mat and apply a gentle tap. You'll soon get the feel for how hard you have to hit it to form a decent looking rivet head. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill badger Posted November 25, 2013 Author Share Posted November 25, 2013 Thanks for that. There are some 'practice rivets' on the fret, so I'll just have to bite the bullet and have a go. I'll inspect my stores for a suitable nail. I'm not too fixated on having to build a wagon as a first attempt - I know people start of with plastic wagon kits as they are cheap and 'easy'. I wonder if a brass coach or something else a bit larger than a wagon / van is a good idea? Or perhaps I should just crack straight on with a Comet 0-6-0 chassis... What did other folk start out with? Do white metal wagon kits give the 'feel' for soldering and working with brass? I've always been put off white metal kits although I'm not quite sure why. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 When I've done rivets the way Jonathan described I just let the small hammer just sort of drop on to the pin or punch rather than swing it, it's own weight enough to give a constant size rivet but then I do use a slightly larger hammer so its all trial and error really (hope this makes sense) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffP Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 If using the above method, you don't want the nail, or pin, to be TOO sharp. Or you could make your own "drop riveter". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Do a search of RMWeb. There are some very good topics on riveting from on the cheap to more expensive tools. There are still a few good 4mm kits out there - look at the Dragon range (mostly Welsh) but the Lochgorm are good. Avoid some of the older kits (most of which are 70's origin) they generally had poor instruction along with poor fitting parts. Not for the beginner - and some not even for the professional! Most of the problems with white metal are really bourne out of the scare stories put about by those who know of melting parts - Most of this is really down to poor technique. It is getting beyond the scare that puts off many that they end up resorting to glue - which can be used (wot! did I actually say that!) But working with white metal is nothing like working with brass/ns - you cannot form white metal and the join is not really soldering but hot gluing with metal. The join is different. Do not expect a brass kit to go together like a plastic kit or even to look the same - they are different. Also they are quite difficult to compete with RTR standards. However, it is enjoyable and satisfying part of the hobby - or at least it is to me. Good luck and enjoy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Maybe obvious but make some joints on bits of scrap etch first, just to get the feel. Just some other thoughts, what sort of solder do you have?, 145 degree is probably the best for general brass construction. A bit of damp sponge or cloth to clean the tip during use and a pair of, ideally, smooth faced pliers to make bends is about all you'll need to make a start. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 I started out with a Falcon brass LSWR ballast wagon, which probably wasn't a good place to start! I reckon that Comet coach kits are a good place to begin. There isn't a massive amount of soldering to do as things like battery boxes are cast whitemetal and are glued on, the sides are preformed and they have decent roofs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimbus Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 First though, I want to cut my teeth on something a bit simpler. I have acquired a couple of the Lochgorm LMS/LNER van kits, but have shied away from starting these for a few months. That sounds like the kit originally designed by Alistair Wright, resulting from an online debate about encouraging people to take their first steps in etched kit construction. If so, you've chosen well. Nevertheless, if you're completely new to the concepts of soldering, some practice in making joints using scrap materials would be wise. If you can find a local club or group holding a kit building clinic day, that would be the perfect venue to get real-time advice on your developing technique. The Nim. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointstaken Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 In the current issue of "Model Engineer" (or "Model Engineers Workshop" - can't remember which ) there is an article on making a spring-loaded dummy riveter, for anyone who is interested. Dennis Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAD Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 2. I could also do with some advice about how to form half-etched rivets; this is the firt step required on the Lochgorm 4mm van kits. The internet searches I have done all seem to say 'go and buy this or that expensive tool'. Any help gratefully received... Have a look at my thread on building the Seven Models o gauge Duke of Gloucester. Some where in there I described how I pop half etched rivets with a spring loaded centre punch. To prevent distortion the etching is rested on a 2-2.5mm aluminium plate. You can usually get both from good model shops for less than a tenner. The one I have has an adjustment on the spring which allows the force of the punch to be varied. The thing is, you can achieve a consistent "hit" for each rivet. Cheers, Peter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Bill Bedford's etched kits are good, if not the simplest. http://www.mousa.biz/fourmm.html I did the GWR ballast wagon and BR Conflat L. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill badger Posted November 25, 2013 Author Share Posted November 25, 2013 Blimey - a lot of info there - thanks chaps. Forming rivets is fairly easy even without a tool - take something like a small panel pin (not too sharp a point) and a toffee hammer, place on something like a cutting mat and apply a gentle tap. You'll soon get the feel for how hard you have to hit it to form a decent looking rivet head. When I've done rivets the way Jonathan described I just let the small hammer just sort of drop on to the pin or punch rather than swing it, it's own weight enough to give a constant size rivet but then I do use a slightly larger hammer so its all trial and error really (hope this makes sense) Well, having found a suitable looking panel pin in the workshop I've just taken a deep breath and had go with a very small hammer! First few practices were hit a bit hard, but I think I got there. It seems best to go for the 'softer than you think' approach. Have just done the rivets on the ends of one of my LMS van kits and I'm pretty happy with the result; a bit of variation, but no major distortion of the panel and I think that with the '3 feet' rule and, in due course, a good lick of paint & weathering they will look just fine. Thank you. As far as solder goes, I bought some 145oC and 179oC from the DCC Concepts range, as well as some of their no-clean alcohol based flux. The Dragon range looks good. As a L&Y man I was very happy to see a 2 Plank wagon and a couple of others. My eye was also drawn by some the LNWR & MR loco kits, but I think we must learn to run before we can walk... The Bill Bedford kits seem to be aimed at the experienced; perhaps one day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Bill Bedford's etched kits are good, if not the simplest. http://www.mousa.biz/fourmm.html I did the GWR ballast wagon and BR Conflat L. John They would be simpler with instructions If you are leaning towards P4 then the no compromise approach will be good perhaps not ideal first kit for OO, whereas the majority of other kits were aimed at OO or EM so often have compromises to allow for both. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 They would be simpler with instructions If you are leaning towards P4 then the no compromise approach will be good perhaps not ideal first kit for OO, whereas the majority of other kits were aimed at OO or EM so often have compromises to allow for both. Actually Kenton, there are instructions - at least mine had them. I wouldn't categorise myself as "experienced" but I am willing to have a go and they were built in 00. I also managed to stick all the bits on. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Cram Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 my first etched kit was a D&S Great central Brake van Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatB Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 As a beginner (so far, 3 wagons and a small loco, all 7 mm) I've been very happy with DCC Concepts' 145 and 179 solders and their no-clean flux. I get on best with the 145 solder. I found it difficult, initially, to get the 179 to run satisfactorily but some practice, and being less timid with the heat, cured that. The No-Clean flux has been fine on brass but I don't find it much use on whitemetal details, needing their regular, Sapphire flux instead for a bit more activity. I also find that even the No-Clean tends to make brass go a bit green with prolonged exposure so I stiull scrub the work after each modelling session. On brass in general, if I can do it, anyone can and, when you've gained some confidence, it is very satisfying watching a detailed, 3-dimensional object emerge from a couple of flat sheets. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill badger Posted November 26, 2013 Author Share Posted November 26, 2013 Coming home today, I have noticed a small amount of some green reaction product appearing. Will plan to give the job a clean as I go along. Managed to fold the Lochgorm kit body last night at get some solder on the joints; not too bad on the seams that were easily accessible, but no real joy on the harder to reach folded corners where, I understand, it is good practice to run a fillet of solder to reinforce the corner. I just could not get the 'flat' wedge face of the iron flush with the corner in an effective way to get a good run of solder. Any tips? My Antex iron has a small 'rounded chisel-shaped' tip, but only really melts the solder on the angled face (if you see what I mean). Is this the right tip to be using? The iron is an adjustable temperature 50W unit and I turned the temp up to max to get the most heat into the job as quickly as possible. Would the 145 degree solder be better than the 179 for this sort of location? Will try and post some pics to request some constructive criticisms of my soldering attempts... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 145 will always be easier in any situation simply because you need to transfer less heat energy to get it to run. For brass, I use 145 solder 99.9% of the time. There's really no need to use any higher melting point solder, it just makes the job more difficult. Some, occasionally I do myself, will use a higher melting point solder to attach an item, if later, there'll be a seam soldered, close by using 145 solder. It reduces the possibility of the first bit falling off. The bigger the soldering iron tip, the quicker you'll transfer heat. Obviously it's a balance, too big and you'll never get it into the joint. I use a 2.5mm Antex bit for most of my 4mm work. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 When starting out - the temptation is to use too much solder. In fact it is always too much. You do not need to run solder down all of all seams - Solder in brass kits is NOT for filling gaps - if the kit has been designed correctly and the kit builder has prepared it correctly, there will be no gaps. Brass will butt up against brass or lie flat on it and then the tiniest amount of solder will bond the two together. If you use too much solder you only have to clean it up - more time wasted and never an ideal. If you are really good then you will never see the solder - such perfection is rarely achieved but always worth aiming for. Too much solder leave a very weak join. The solder crystallises during cooling and is brittle the join consequentially is prone to failure. It is all about practise and getting better at it. There are only 3 types of solder join:1. Metal edge to edge - join two flat pieces of metal so that their edges touch each other (this is the most difficult join - and the weakest2. Metal edge to flat - form a right angle corner with two pieces (also but a side to a flat to form a perpendicular - stronger and easier.3. Metal overlay - flat edges over one another as a sandwich - strongest and easiest - there should be no bleed of solder 'filling' from the sandwich. There is a 4th - but is a variation on 2, that is the wire through hole or tab through slot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill badger Posted November 27, 2013 Author Share Posted November 27, 2013 Thanks for the info. Yes, too much solder does seem to be the one to avoid. I constructed the doors / door frames last night, and tried to tin the frame and attach the details with minimal solder and loads of flux. Very happy with the results. I have read elsewhere (can't think of the reference, but think it was mentioned in a feature on soldering in one the mags) that you should run a fillet of solder inside half-etch folds to add strength; this is the activity I struggled with; trying to get the iron into the folded corner was nigh on impossible. Is this advice of 'debatable provenance' then? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill badger Posted November 27, 2013 Author Share Posted November 27, 2013 Here's a couple of pics to show the 'fun'. The first isn't pretty - I won't be offended if anyone wants to point out my failings! They were my first attempts 'in anger' after a myriad of practice joints on scrap bits of fret, where access wasn't a problem... Anyway, as I said, I'm much happier with the door assembly, and the two small corner strap details - fiddly but satisfying when they went on. No spare solder to be seen, but you can see a very thin, neat solder filing in the brass sandwich when viewed side on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatB Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 Those inside corners look like they need more heat (although the scale difference (4 mm vs 7 mm) may be making the blobs look bigger to me than they actually are. The door's really nice though. I wish I could sweat stuff together as neatly . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill badger Posted November 28, 2013 Author Share Posted November 28, 2013 No, I think the blobs are as big and bad as they look! Not a good result really on those corners, but the two critical ones that hold the thing together are, at least, doing that and as the mess will be hidden on the inside, I'm not going to go in deeper by trying to rectify the situation. An hour last night got the corner plates and door latches (very fiddly to fold and attach, but we got there in the end) attached and again, by using the smallest amount of solder possible, they still seemed to attach solidly, but only after several attempts as the wretched things kept moving and sticking in the wrong place, despite best efforts with tweezers, paper clips etc. I think I need to address how I position and hold parts, especially the small fiddly ones, before and during soldering. The tweezers I do have are obviously way too chunky and I need to find a way of use my 'help hand' device without the croc clips damaging the brass. Was wondering if I could use something like a cocktail stick to press down on one end of a small fiddly bit while I apply the iron to the other end. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 Good start Bill, I'd agree with Pat, the lumpy solder suggests that there was insufficient heat to fully melt the solder. When there is it will run and flash into a thin layer. You generally need to apply the iron to one part of the joint and once it starts to run around the iron tip, draw it along the join and the solder will flow with you. It is commonly advised to strengthen a folded joint with a thin fillet of solder run inside the angle. It stiffens the angle and prevents flexing. Just this week I've been assembling a High Level gearbox and the instructions suggest doing just that. It just makes the assembled gearbox that bit more rigid. It's not always essential, depends on the nature of the joint. Cocktail sticks are ideal for holding down small parts as you solder them on, they have the advantage of not drawing away heat. You'll eventually end up using cocktail sticks, bits and blocks of wood, scalpel tips, small screwdrivers and clips of all sorts to hold and support the parts as you assemble them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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