Help needed with mixed goods formations

[coniston branch]

Hi All,

 

What's the best way to research goods formations ? Is there a good book on the subject ? Did things change between time periods and regions ? And finally where do the fitted wagons go in a train of mixed fitted and unfitted stock?

 

Phil

 

 

[HillsideDepot]

Hi Phil,

 

there is a huge wealth of information available from the members on here, especially as a number have first hand rail freight experience.

Things certainly did change over time and in different areas, although certain rules applied to all. So, if you could give an indication of the area and time you are interested in that would help people provide some answers.

With regard to fitted and unfitted wagons, the fitted ones would need to be attached to the loco via the vacuum pipes of the wagons ahead if the brake is to be operative. However, there were "through piped" wagons as well which didn't have vacuum brakes, but did allow the connection of wagons behind them to the locomotive's braking system.

 

But there are (were!) exceptions to every "rule" and there might be a few fitted wagons further down the train running as unfitted stock if that suited shunting arrangements and still met the rules for the proportion of the train which needed to be braked. Another exception would be a short distance trip working from local sidings back to the main yard, on these it might be considered too much hassle to do all the connections and brake tests if the train wasn't going far and would be split up again once it reached the main yard. Obviously it would have to obey all the rules for an unfitted working, but it would be erroneous to assume that if a wagon has vacuum brakes it would be running as such.

I'm sure others will be along to add to this; freight is a fascinating subject, but a vast one. Don't let that put you off, but it is a bit like the Tardis, even bigger on the inside than it appears from the outside!
 

[bike2steam]

'Railway Freight Train Operations For The Railway Modeller' - Bob Essery, 0-7110-3142-8

One of the few good titles from Ian Allan.

[coniston branch]

Thanks for the replies folks, A bit more background info, period is early nationalization, 1950-55, ex-furness railway (ex-LMS) 

 

Thanks again 

Phil

[coniston branch]

Thanks Paul, got a number of books published by the Cumbrian railway association, was trying to understand the principles as well the practice of freight movements

 

Phil

Line histories and photo album books of the Furness area in the 50s will also help. Not my area, so cannot I cannot suggest any titles.

[11B]

Thanks for the replies folks, A bit more background info, period is early nationalization, 1950-55, ex-furness railway (ex-LMS) 

 

Thanks again 

Phil

Hi Phil,

 

Any particular part of the ex-Furness, i.e. the main line or one of the numerous branches?

 

Kind regards

 

Ian

[coniston branch]

Hi Phil,

 

Any particular part of the ex-Furness, i.e. the main line or one of the numerous branches?

 

Kind regards

 

Ian

Hi Ian,

This is another part of the Dalton-in-Furness theme we discussed before Christmas, Got the idea of some block coke trains from Tebay, empties heading the other way, block steel rail trains, from Barrow steel works, Limestone from Stainton quarries, just trying to get my head around local mixed goods tarins.

 

Phil

[David C]

I think it was Martin Waters who pointed out that pick up goods, particularly on branch lines, were marshalled in whichever way was most convenient for shunting, so fitted wagons would be placed anywhere, but run with their vac hoses unconnected. In order to couple and uncouple 3 link couplings, an experienced shunter (often the guard on pick up goods) could 'flick' the links on and off the hook using his pole pivoted on the buffers from the side of the track. To couple fitted wagons, he had to get down down onto the track between the buffers, tighten the screw links and screw together the vac hoses (uncoupling involved the reverse process), all of which took a lot more time and was a lot more dangerous as well. Most railwaymen wanted to get the job done ASAP and it was a lot easier to treat fitted wagons as unfitted for this very reason.

 

I imagine that the only exceptions would be in circumstances where trains were particularly heavy and had to traverse a stretch of track which was heavily graded - fitted wagons all connected up behind the loco would provide additional brake power. The other exception would be if there were loaded livestock wagons in the train which had to be marshalled behind the engine and the vacuum hoses connected. This was to reduce the "surging" of typical of loose coupled wagons whilst moving, so lessening the possibility of injury to the animals.

 

David C 

[coniston branch]

 loaded livestock wagons in the train which had to be marshalled behind the engine and the vacuum hoses connected. This was to reduce the "surging" of typical of loose coupled wagons whilst moving, so lessening the possibility of injury to the animals.

 

David C 

Those are just the little gems of information I was looking for, thanks David

[11B]

Hi Phil,

 

I have an idea (what! It happens sometimes!!!!) and will PM you details of a man to contact

 

Hope it helps

 

Ian

[Gordon A]

What sort of line and trains are you interested in?

 

By that are you looking at a branch line that only saw pick-up goods that stopped and shunted stations as required? In this case David C's post number 9 would be applicable.

Transfer or trip freights between centres may be run at a higher speed, in which case a vacum fitted head would may be required. This would be easier as the train would be formed in the despatching yard, and broken or re-organised at its destination.

Para 2 of David C's post.

 

Have a look at the loco head lamp codes for the differing types of freight trains.

 

Block trains  could be vac fitted, fitted head or unfitted depending on the wagons and used in the train and their load.

 

Gordon A

Bristol

[kevinlms]

I think it was Martin Waters who pointed out that pick up goods, particularly on branch lines, were marshalled in whichever way was most convenient for shunting, so fitted wagons would be placed anywhere, but run with their vac hoses unconnected. In order to couple and uncouple 3 link couplings, an experienced shunter (often the guard on pick up goods) could 'flick' the links on and off the hook using his pole pivoted on the buffers from the side of the track. To couple fitted wagons, he had to get down down onto the track between the buffers, tighten the screw links and screw together the vac hoses (uncoupling involved the reverse process), all of which took a lot more time and was a lot more dangerous as well. Most railwaymen wanted to get the job done ASAP and it was a lot easier to treat fitted wagons as unfitted for this very reason.

 

I imagine that the only exceptions would be in circumstances where trains were particularly heavy and had to traverse a stretch of track which was heavily graded - fitted wagons all connected up behind the loco would provide additional brake power. The other exception would be if there were loaded livestock wagons in the train which had to be marshalled behind the engine and the vacuum hoses connected. This was to reduce the "surging" of typical of loose coupled wagons whilst moving, so lessening the possibility of injury to the animals.

 

David C 

I would agree & its also the reason why the modern day block train rules. No one wants to pay for some one to connect/disconnect the couplings & brakes any more. Even container flats, often are seen unloaded in part of a train, because its uneconomic to leave seemingly unrequired wagons behind, for pick up later. Of course there is also the problem, that loadings may be unbalanced.

[The Stationmaster]

As others have pointed out there was a difference between 'local' trip workings (sometimes called pick-ups or pick up goods etc) and trains running any sort of distance.  The reason for this is that the latter could require a particular amount of brake power controlled by the Driver which influenced their maximum speed which thus affected journey time and connections at yards and so on.  Local trips were timed at low speeds and brake power controlled from the engine was of far less relevance in most cases except occasionally for trips working over a long distance where they might have their classification raised for part of the journey if other circumstances permitted.  So immediately freights split into two groups depending on brake power and then further sub-division depending on the amount of brake power.

 

Simple situation - most local freight trips relied solely on the engine and Guard's Brakevan brakes plus wagon handbrakes on steep falling gradients - so positioning of fitted wagons for braking purposes was irrelevant and can be ignored.  As already stated - local trips were normally marshalled for shunting convenience.  (incidentally vacuum braked freight wagons didn't need someone to 'go in between' in order to part them provided they had Instanter couplings, which was increasingly the case in BR days, because the coupling could be lengthened from outside and the pipes just pulled apart when wagons were knocked off).

 

The next part of marshalling - and really the only bit you need to worry about for a local freight trip - is any requirement to marshal particular sorts of wagon or traffic in a certain place (or not in a particular place) in the train.  Cattle wagons have been mentioned already and other examples were wagons conveying explosives and some kinds of tank wagons.  The best source document for this in your case would probably be the LMS General Appendix to the Rule Book, 1937 issue which you should be able to find on the 'net for less than £10 and which you will find to be a mine of useful information and not just about freight trains.  The other book you might find handy is the Sectional Appendix for the area you are modelling but it is likely to be more expensive although prices vary considerably according to area and date of issue - there was probably one issued in the early 1950s.