Hawes Joint Station Signal box

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi All

 

I have been helping a friend who is part of a group building Hawes Station. I have done a drawing of the signal box based on information from the Signalling Study groups book "The Signal Box" and two (not brilliant) photos. Does any have any photos or could give me a reference to some.

 

The box as far as I can tell is a Midland Railway type 2b and is 15 feet long by 12 feet wide. One of the photos clearly shows 6 deep windows in the front which is correct for a 15 foot front panel and five short windows on the non-stairway end which indicates it is 12 feet wide. The frame is 20 levers long, and from my research MR boxes of 18 to 20 levers all seem to be 15 feet long. The combination of deep windows on the front and short windows on the side makes it a type 2 box.

 

The staircase is to the front of the box not central on the end. I cannot make out which side the locking room door should be. I have drawn it to the rear of the box because most MR boxes had this door in this position.

 

The biggest problem I have is I do not have a clue what it looked like at the rear. It was on the edge of an embankment. Do sides and rear continue with the slope of the embankment or was there a frame, foundation or something supporting the back of the box.

 

 

This is how far I have got with the drawing.

 

 

And one in colour, was it in LMR colours in BR days? Was it MR or NER colours pre-grouping, that is when the model is set.

 

Edited February 2, 2014 by Clive Mortimore

[steverabone]

Hi All

 

I have been helping a friend who is part of a group building Hawes Station. I have done a drawing of the signal box based on information from the Signalling Study groups book "The Signal Box" and two (not brilliant) photos. Does any have any photos or could give me a reference to some.

 

The box as far as I can tell is a Midland Railway type 2b and is 15 feet long by 12 feet wide. One of the photos clearly shows 6 deep windows in the front which is correct for a 15 foot front panel and five short windows on the non-stairway end which indicates it is 12 feet wide. The frame is 20 levers long, and from my research MR boxes of 18 to 20 levers all seem to be 15 feet long. The combination of deep windows on the front and short windows on the side makes it a type 2 box.

 

The staircase is to the front of the box not central on the end. I cannot make out which side the locking room door should be. I have drawn it to the rear of the box because most MR boxes had this door in this position.

 

The biggest problem I have is I do not have a clue what it looked like at the rear. It was on the edge of an embankment. Do sides and rear continue with the slope of the embankment or was there a frame, foundation or something supporting the back of the box.

 

mid box 5.png

 

This is how far I have got with the drawing.

 

mid box 3.png

 

And one in colour, was it in LMR colours in BR days? Was it MR or NER colours pre-grouping, that is when the model is set.

 

mid box 4.png

 

This website has a photo of the signal box which will confirm what type it is - no view of the rear i'm afraid.

 

http://www.yorkshiredales.org.uk/educationservice/edu-resources/edu-dcmfiles/dcm_ed_file_railway_oct03.pdf

[Clive Mortimore]

Cheers Steve

 

It does indicate that in BR days it was painted in North Eastern Region Blue and Cream.

 

[Beatty 139]

Hi Clive

I have built quite a few MR boxes now of types 1,2,3 & 4 and have been doing quite a lot of research.

 

The image below may be the answer to your question, the Midland didn't use foundations as far as I understand it until the type 4 signal boxes, although quite a few were underpinned with foundations as the corner posts went rotten. That has happened to the Box in the photo and Network Rail added the foundations a few years ago.

the Box in question is a 10' square ground level type 3 box and as you will see the locking room floor is suspended above the bank.

 

if its of any use please see the photo below as the rear of a Type 2 box.

 

If you need any information please feel free to ask.

 

Kind Regards

Andy

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Andy

 

Thank you. I am right in thinking the corner post would be like stilts at the rear with a void under the floor of the locking room? The opposite to Mortimer Street box which was built half way up a cutting.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/28083135@N06/5819335884/in/photostream/

 

Edited February 2, 2014 by Clive Mortimore

[Beatty 139]

Hi Clive

 

That's how I would expect it to be but I have only seen that one surviving box as per the photograph with that kind of arrangement, but until a photo or other evidence comes to light I doubt anyone could question it.

 

All type 1.2 & 3 boxes use the corner posts buried in a post hole to form the foundation of the building with the flakes filling in between.

 

The tapering corner posts are a pain to get looking right as the only taper on the outside faces unlike a signal post that taper on all four.

 

Regards

 

Andy Mould

[Clive Mortimore]

Thanks again Andy

 

Revised drawings, moving the locking room door to the front of the box.

 

Edited February 2, 2014 by Clive Mortimore

[Blandford1969]

Would the drawings in (I think) the railway modeller from again (I think) the 1970s when a model was made help. I would assume there must have been an article of the finished layout?

[Clive Mortimore]

Would the drawings in (I think) the railway modeller from again (I think) the 1970s when a model was made help. I would assume there must have been an article of the finished layout?

Hi Blandford

 

That is of great help. I will see if I can locate a copy.

[Paul Cram]

Hi Clive

 

The door to the locking room was at the rear of the side facing the station. There is a photo in Railway bylines which Keith has a copy of I believe. This shows a wooden boardwalk to the door.It does appear as though the planking extended down to ground level at the rear.Although the ground falls away it would only appear to be 3 or 4 planks depth below the normal base level.There was a window at the right hand of the side under the steps.

Edited February 2, 2014 by Paul Cram

[Paul Cram]

Would the drawings in (I think) the railway modeller from again (I think) the 1970s when a model was made help. I would assume there must have been an article of the finished layout?

Unfortunately although there was drawings of all the buildings there wasn't drawings of the signal box.

[Jon Gwinnett]

The only picture I can find, a poor, distant, view in "Stations & Structures of..." Looks to me to support the stilts with no infill theory

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Clive

 

The door to the locking room was at the rear of the side facing the station. There is a photo in Railway bylines which Keith has a copy of I believe. This shows a wooden boardwalk to the door.It does appear as though the planking extended down to ground level at the rear.Although the ground falls away it would only appear to be 3 or 4 planks depth below the normal base level.There was a window at the right hand of the side under the steps.

Hi Paul

 

I will have to box Keith around the ears on Monday, he never showed me that photo.

 

So the basic box is as drawn in the first post.

 

If keith doesn't have a copy can you leave yours with him on Friday so i can have a look next Monday?

 

Cheers

 

Clive

[Clive Mortimore]

The only picture I can find, a poor, distant, view in "Stations & Structures of..." Looks to me to support the stilts with no infill theory

Hi Jon

 

Thanks, I have that photo and that is what made me think about what was under the locking room. Once I have seen the Bylines photo hopefully I will have a better idea.

 

I found an article in the autum 1987 copy of The Wyvern and there is a photo showing the box, again in the distance, some cleaver S&T bloke has planted a telegraph pole that hides the rear corner of the box.

 

Cheers

 

Clive

Edited February 2, 2014 by Clive Mortimore

[Bob Ellis]

Hi Clive,

 

I only come on here rarely and only noticed your question because a friend pointed it out to me. I can offer you some help, not only with the signal box, but possibly with other aspects of your model because (a) I live within half a mile of Hawes station (b) I am a historian who has been researching Hawes station (and the rest of the branch) for more than 30 years © I have a collection of over 3,000 photographs of the branch (including c.350 of Hawes station) and (d) I am also building a model of Hawes station (c.1906). Within my collection are several photographs showing Hawes (East) signal box - as you probably know, there was another one (Hawes West) until its removal in 1907. Unfortunately, while some of these show the rear of the box in the distance (which was as you have drawn it), none show the base of the rear, but more about that later. You are right that it was a 15' x 12' type 2b box.

 

I'll begin with a couple of comments on your drawings. As somebody else has already said, the locking room door was in the rear corner of the western end of the box (i.e. the end nearest the station) and there was a window directly below the stairs. You have drawn the support brackets for the landing at the top of the stairs as straight, but they were curved. I think your drawings are accurate apart from that, but I will try to find time to have a closer look later in the week, since I will be away for the next couple of days.

 

Next, the livery: although it was a joint MR/NER station, Hawes was built and maintained by the Midland Railway and subsequently by the LMS, so it was in Midland livery in pre-grouping days. Your uncertainty about this may stem from the fact that Hawes station and the line from Hawes to Garsdale was transferred from Midland to North Eastern Region jurisdiction a few months after nationalisation and was subsequently repainted in BR (NE) light blue and ivory.

 

Now your question about the base at the rear, where it overhung the embankment. While none of my photographs show the rear, several of them show the ends and I think we can deduce what the rear was like with reasonable confidence from the eastern end. Photographs of the western end don't help because there was a wooden walkway leading to the locking room door that obscured the base at the rear of that end. The walkway stood clear of the ground in front of that door as the embankment dropped away, but it doesn't mean that this was also the case with the base of the signal box, in fact I am fairly confident that it wasn't. We can deduce this from examining photographs of the eastern end, which show that the weatherboarding continued downwards at the rear of that end where the embankment began to fall away. If it continued down at one end, then it is likely that it also did so at the rear of the box and at its western end below the locking room door.

 

Finally, can I suggest you contact Kidderminster Railway Museum for a copy of the earliest clear photograph of the signal box of which I am aware, which was taken in 1931. The reference number for this photograph is 086757. The photograph is a 3/4 view looking at the southern side and western end of the box, although the lower part of the end is obscured by a PW trolley and its crew. A good later photograph taken in 1959 from a similar viewpoint, but without the PW trolley in the way can be obtained from the John Mallon Collection held by the North Eastern Railway Association in Darlington Railway Museum. The reference number is JFM 2910.

 

Let me know if I can help you further. You can contact me privately if you wish at bob@bpellis.idps.co.uk

 

Best wishes,

Bob

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Bob

 

Wow, thanks for all that information.

 

I am not part of the project I just happen to have quite a bit of information on the Midland Railway and said I would help my friend Keith. I enjoy doing research for model railways as much as modelling.

 

I will pass on the above to my friend Keith, and I am sure the project lead, Paul Cram, will pick this up. 

 

Again many thanks,

 

Yours

 

Clive

[Edmund Kinder]

Hi Clive

 

I have this picture of the box that is a still from the film "The Long Drag"  filmed in 1963.  It doesn't give you the rear detail you seek, but its still an interesting picture in a general sense, as it shows the dereliction of the box at this time.

 

 

Best Regards

Edmund

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Edmund

 

That is great, it is another photo. It shows on the landing banister (?) a rail between the hand rail and the landing walkway which I have not put on the drawing.

 

Thank you.

[ianmaccormac]

Hi

Chatham & District MRC made a model of Hawes in the 1970's after a field trip when lots of photos were taken. Plans were drawn and a write up in MRC in 1978 I think. Malcolm White or Dave Pennington were the lead on this. Article was called 'A way through the mountains' if I remember correctly.

25 years since I moved up to Blackpool but it may be worth asking the club if they have any records?

More recently, hasn't Preston club done a model also?

Cheers

Ian in Blackpool

Edited June 15, 2015 by ianmaccormac

[Edmund Kinder]

Hi

Chatham & District MRC made a model of Hawes in the 1970's after a field trip when lots of photos were taken. Plans were drawn and a write up in MRC in 1978 I think. Malcolm White or Dave Pennington were the lead on this. Article was called 'A way through the mountains' if I remember correctly.

25 years since I moved up to Blackpool but it may be worth asking the club if they have any records?

More recently, hasn't Preston club done a model also?

Cheers

Ian in Blackpool

 

Following on from what Ian wrote above, I had a look through all my old Model Railway Constructor magazines and I've found the articles entitled "A Way through the Mountains" in 5 parts from the Chatham and District MRC printed between February and June 1978.  Looking through the text on the articles, the section on the signal box describes the method of construction (scribing plasticard etc), but doesn't describe anything about the rear of the box other than it was "raised on an embankment".  There is one photograph of the model of the signal box though and it does show a boarded walkway at the base under the steps around the locking room door.  Looking even more carefully, the photograph suggests that the corner posts extended down the back of the embankment and did not have any lap boarding following them down at the back.  Have a look at the picture and see if you can make that out.

 

 

Best Regards

Edmund

[thetalkinlens]

@Clive Mortimore having found this thread four years after the most recent post, I was wondering if the project progressed? I'm considering doing a 4mm model of Hawes myself, hence stumbling on here.

 

I'd noticed from your drawings that the you have the door side of the signal box five windows deep (including the door), but should only be four? I've also found several colour photos of Hawes including the signal box in the 50's and 60's and the area you have in the drawings as the NE region blue looks from the photos to be much more pale, and I'd even suggest it was more green than blue.

Edited June 16, 2019 by thetalkinlens

[Clive Mortimore]

24 minutes ago, thetalkinlens said:

@Clive Mortimore having found this thread four years after the most recent post, I was wondering if the project progressed? I'm considering doing a 4mm model of Hawes myself, hence stumbling on here.

 

I'd noticed from your drawings that the you have the door side of the signal box five windows deep (including the door), but should only be four? I've also found several colour photos of Hawes including the signal box in the 50's and 60's and the are you have in the drawings as the NE region blue looks from the photos to be much more pale, and I'd even suggest it was more green than blue.

Thanks, On reading your post I thought, "Now that will give me something to do , redraw the ends." The drawings were done on my lap top, which at this moment in time is on its way to France with my son. So plan B will be to up date it when he returns.

 

The blue should be lighter.

[thetalkinlens]

This colour photo on Flickr may be useful. Taken in 1963, probably around the same time as the black & white earlier up this thread. It shows the green (rather than NE region blue) used. It also looks like the lower door is completely in the green, rather than being cut across by the level of where the green changes to white/light creme.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/42823047722/

 

 

Edited June 16, 2019 by thetalkinlens

[Clive Mortimore]

40 minutes ago, thetalkinlens said:

This colour photo on Flickr may be useful. Taken in 1963, probably around the same time as the black & white earlier up this thread. It shows the green (rather than NE region blue) used. It also looks like the lower door is completely in the green, rather than being cut across by the level of where the green changes to white/light creme.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/42823047722/

 

 

I was working on what I believed to be the standard colours for the North Eastern Region, looking at the other photos in the album the photo of the signal box comes from quite a few other buildings have the same lime green paint work where I would have expected the light blue. Thanks that is something I have learnt today.

Edited June 16, 2019 by Clive Mortimore

[thetalkinlens]

Yes, I'm not sure the reason for the green. If you go through the album on Flickr, Askrigg is of particular note as the station building is partially in the NE region blue, and part in the green. I have a colour photo in a book showing Hawes in March 1959, a week before the last passenger train - the green in the photo of the signal box was present on the station building then.