Driver links at Depots

[18B]

Morning,

 

just wondering about how the link system at Depots worked. I looking most specifically at fright depots in the 70's 80's and 90's, but any pertinant info the link system would be much appreciated.

 

I presume that when a driver was passed out he would go in to the bottom link and progress through the links to the better jobs, (more sociable book on times etc, less shunting, out and back etc) as and when vacancies in those links allowed upward progression. I presume also however that this would essential have only have been when the old hands at the top retired and everyone moved up the pecking order (in seniority basis) until they were affectively "promoted" into the next link above?

 

RE: secondmen did they have to progress all the way through to the top link before they would be accepted for driving?

 

I presume also that in most large depot there would be "green car" men in the lower links and men would have the option of staying in the lowerr links if they preffered?

 

best regards

 

Any further info details on how the link system at depots worked,

[roythebus]

Difficult to answer as the link system varied between regions and depot, depending on the nature of the work.

 

At Rugby in 1974 there was I think 2 drivers links and 1 secondman link of about 28 men.

 

At Kings Cross in 1975 there were several secondman links and 4 or 5 driver links. As an experiment this was reduced to 1 huge secondman link of about 200 men. This was not popular with the drivers who preferred running with a regular mate. This then reverted to the previous link system based on seniority of 2nd men.

 

The drivers links were based on seniority and work;

Link 1 was Newcastle lodging turns, York out and back, and all points south, virtually no local passenger work, but lots of ECS.

Link 2 was Leeds, Doncaster, all points south, local passenger including Widened Lines, lots of ECS.

Link 3 was Peterborough, Cambridge, all points south, lots of ECS.

Link 4 was mostly single-mnned DMU local passenger, Cambridge, Widened Lines, Stratford, Willesden, Broad Street, any other cross-London stuff, lots of ECS

There may have been a Link 5 for junior drivers, which was much like link 4 and included "pilots" at Bounds Green, Ferme Park, Top Shed, goods yard etc.

 

With the advent of overhead electrification , this subsequently changed, and with HSTs changed again.

 

Waterloo from 1980 had 4 links:

Link 1 Bournemouth, Weymouth, Salisbury (later Exeter), all suburban lines except Waterloo & City, Horsham, Reading.

Link 2 Bournemouth, Salisbury, Portsmouth, all suburban lines

Link 3 Bournemouth, Portsmouth, all suburban lines including W&C

Link 4 Portsmouth, Alton (not beyond Pirbright on the main line), Reading, Horsham, all suburban lines including W&C, electric traction only.

Links 1and 2 were trained on all EMU stock plus REP, 33, 73, 47, 50, 08.

Link 3 was all EMU stock, REP, 33, 73, 08

Link 4 was all emu stock only.

 

There was also a "green card" link of restricted men who usually done the Waterloo pilot when we had one, and the Clapham pilots.

 

Waterloo 2nd men was 1 link only.

 

Links at most depots were based strictly on seniority with progress being painfully slow at some places; it really was a case of "dead man's boots" waiting for someone to die or retire. At Waterloo and other London depots the staff was much more transient, so progress through the lower links was quicker. At KX drivers in 4 link could opt not to go further as the turns could be more sociable hours.

 

KX also had a lot of ECS work, taking incoming stock to Ferme Park for washing, then to Bounds Green where another loco would take the stock into Bounds Green Depot for internal cleaning, then back onto the next train and take that into the depot for cleaning, then waiting to take stock back into KX or light engine back to Ferme Park...

 

Personally I found the loco-hauled suburban trains interesting to work, the last of the traditional loco-hauled stopping trains in the country, and of course the Deltics!!

[18B]

Thank you roythebus for the great answer, any other such detail swould be much appreciated.

[The Stationmaster]

The principles of link structuring are fairly straightforward but sometimes contradictory - as will be come clearer as I run through them.

 

Firstly link position in the past was invariably decide by seniority with the top/No.1 Link being the most senior.  In privatised freight companies I suspect seniority is not so important but those involved are far better able to comment than me on that one.  As Roy has already said progression was largely deadmen's shoes although dramatic changes - e.g. the introduction of HSTs with two Drivers in the cab on the high speed sections could cause very sudden changes, as of course could relocation of work between depots.

 

However while seniority had its role there were several basic factors which were critical to establishing a link structure and these were route and traction knowledge - there had to be a sufficient amount of each in order to ensure that knowledge retention was as inbuilt into the workload as possible thus minimising, in particular, route refreshing days (which were expensive).  On the Western we established a fairly standardised norm of 5 days in 12 weeks for route knowledge within a link and in later years all our allocation of work to depots took that into account as well as the long established principle of economic diagramming (which is really outwith linking as such).  

 

The 5 days in 12 weeks was officially established as a national standard in the early 1990s but some Regions were extremely loath to work to it as they tended to have work spread widely through the links at some depots (e.g. Saltley) or they had very long links (e,g, Brighton - about 120-130 Drivers all in one link at one time in the early '90s, it lost them freight work as a result when we moved the Ardingly branch turn from there to the Western where there were short freight links).  Nowadays it is slightly different and while the 5 in 12 still lurks in the background the official position (the last time I heard one!) is that each route should be separately assessed to establish an individual norm for it - however linking has to then be based on that norm or if there is insufficient work Route refreshing days have to be provided.

 

Also in the late 1980s we started to move towards train and traction handling norms and as part of this our first step was to separate between depots passenger and freight/engineering train working - thus for example Reading lost all its non-passenger work and became a dmu only depot while Didcot picked up Reading's few remaining engineering train turns to go with its already established freight role.  Once sector management arrived in 1992 we took this approach to its obvious conclusion, for example we took the freight work (already separately linked) out of Old Oak and moved it to a newly established depot at Acton which gave us, or rather local management, far more direct control of costs (we already controlled the disgramming costs as we did that work within TLF but depot overheads etc were in another sector until the change).

 

Somewhat contrary to the route & traction knowledge factors was the staff side insistence at many depots to try to equalise earnings between the various links - thus at one depot where I spent some years the average earnings in No.1 Link were only a fe £s per week more than the earnings in No.4 Link.  No.1 Link had all the longest distance turns - which meant some Mileage Payments - but had no night work - which reduced enhanced payments - but also had a lot of ECS ferry work which were 'basic earnings' jobs.  In an effort to push its earnings up No.4 Link had quite a lot of night/very early morning turns but no very long distance work.

 

There has been a debate for many years over whether short links are better than long links and I tend to the view that shorter links are probably better - preferably no more than 24 weeks.  This became even more important when National Agreements regarding average hours etc came in - while the maths are simpler with very long links the individual effect within a very big link can easily get disproportionate, especially when you consider that before a Driver works their way through the entire link rotation the diagrammed work could have changed several times over!  This can particularly be the case with freight work where we worked on an 8 week cycle for permanent changes to the WTT and hence changes to traincrew diagrams.  While some freight traffic patterns can remain stable for many years a lot of it tends to be driven by customer contracts (with their customers) or even seasonal influences hence changes occurring every 8 weeks.  Short links in multiples of 8 are ideally matched to that situation.

 

Hope that's helped a bit.

[dvdlcs]

Hello.

 

Having read a number of railwaymens accounts - both here and elsewhere - there is often a theme of 'having' to move depots in order to progress upwards in the links. Going to London was often cited as a way of doing this as the depots there seemed to have a higher turnover of people so promotion was apparently quicker.

 

I do wonder how many of the 'leavers' at the London depots were people who had come in from the country earlier and were transferring back to where they came from, albeit at a higher level than they left!

 

Hope this helps,

 

David.

[Supaned]

I think the move to London area depots was more for secondmen to get registered as drivers , then they could transfer back to their depot of choice with a seniority date rather than waiting for a trainee vacancy as by that point they'd already be a qualified driver.

[Gwiwer]

Different local practices occurred as has been discussed already.

 

Some depots had high staff turnover, others lower.  You could progress in seniority more quickly at a depot with a higher turnover but might want to ask why that was the case.  Perhaps the work was less desirable or the depot management not enjoying the trust of the workforce they managed.  There are stories to suggest monotony and tedium at depots where most of the work was the same (such as EMU depots with just a few routes to cover with one or two types of stock) but as many to imply that some men were happy with what they knew and stuck with it year after year.

 

Under BR progression was by seniority into "dead man's shoes" and that didn't apply only for footplate grades.  I was in the catering department at the time which still - until pre-privatisation moves - worked to much the same principal and you "went up" to supervisor when it was your turn.  

 

In every case that I am aware of there was always the option to stay put.  Some men would have chosen to not progress through the links.  Perhaps the work in the next link didn't appeal.  Despite it being in the nature of the job not all men were ever happy with lodging turns and might stay on a lower link because they had none.  The penalty was never getting to "have a go" on the main line and instead usually working local stopping services, empties or freights.  Station pilot duties were popular with a few drivers and the bane of others' lives.

 

I had some of my staff transfer to the operating side, invariably at Stratford as my base at the time wasLiverpool Street.  As second men they were often on the station pilot and doing nothing for hours at a time.  As passed men they got a few runs to Gidea Park or even Southend.  I wasn't around long enough to see any progress into the top link and take 47s to Norwich.  That was for the "old hands".

 

By way of a variation on a theme my great uncle was a Wadebridge driver until 1961.  I'm not sure of the link arrangement there but think there were two.  One worked the locals to Padstow and Bodmin plus local freights.  The other worked the "main line" up to Okehampton or occasionally Exeter.  But the senior man was always offered the Wenford Goods.  It was usually the easiest turn with little in the way of effort and perfectly sociable hours.  As such shed management determined that the senior driver had earned the easy ride if he wanted it. 

[Pete 75C]

When I passed as a driver, I was so damn good I went straight into the Top Link. Ahem... maybe I should mention my freight depot was so small it only had one link...

 

Edit: An awful lot of the older drivers at Norwood when I started had come down to London from Scottish depots as passed firemen. A mentor to me, a jovial guy called Eddie Gordon was a regular Royal Train driver. I remember him being rostered to work the Derby special to Tattenham Corner one year, probably a cleaned and polished ED or Crompton (I can't remember). When he arrived that morning he was immaculately turned out but for some bizarre reason he was wearing white leather shoes. The Traction Inspector went absolutely ballistic but Eddie calmed him down saying how would anyone see his shoes when he was sat in the loco...?

To Eddie's horror, on arrival at Tattenham, all train crew were lined up on the platform so the Queen could briefly thank each of them. She paused and whispered a word or two to Eddie. Asked what she had said to him, apparently she just smiled and said "nice shoes"...

[The Stationmaster]

I think the move to London area depots was more for secondmen to get registered as drivers , then they could transfer back to their depot of choice with a seniority date rather than waiting for a trainee vacancy as by that point they'd already be a qualified driver.

Generally the case.  In steam days men often went from provincial shed s to London, and other large cities, to get their Firing job but with a registered First Preference to go back to their 'home' shed.  Much the same happened increasingly in the 1970s as youngsters went to 'inner' area EMU depots/signing-on points on the Souther in order to get their Driving job and in many cases kept a First Preference to go back to their original depot.

 

Under BR the system worked on 'all line' seniority for Drivers but there was an order in which jobs were filled - thus if a vacancy arose for a Driver at, say, Depot A the first to be considered were any redundant men in the grade who were standing put back (i.e. were in a Secondman's post), then any men standing put back at any other depot with a preference in for Depot A, then men who had gone away to get their Driving job but had a First Preference in for Depot A, then the most senior Secondman who made an open application.

 

Preferences could be entered at any time but your were only allowed one change (unless made redundant in the grade) but preferences had to be cancelled no later than a week before the vacancy list appeared.  This could get quite interesting at times - for instance when HSTs went onto the West of England route there was quite a lot of change in the work at various depots and Penzance, in particular picked up a lot of driving turns which created vacancies and this meant the Seniority Date for Drivers suddenly changed from somewhen in 1945 to a date in the early 1960s.  One of my Drivers had a First Preference in for Penzance which he'd registered when he moved away for his driving job many years previously - he was duly called into the office, pointedly asked if he had forgotten to cancel his First Preference, he insisted that he hadn't and didn't want to (such notes could get lost in the system for a week or more ) and was then told he would be starting at Penzance the following Monday, he smiled and very cheerfully went home to tell his wife that they were moving.

 

Overall it was quite a good system and it always retained a degree of choice as men (and increasingly women) were allowed to register a preference for whatever depot they wanted to anywhere in the country and it was fairly efficient at filling jobs except at the least popular/most boring (work wise) depots.

 

In many respects the footplate staff were better off than other wages grades as they were not only restricted to what were called (their own) Promotion Diagram but were also only allowed to apply for a job in their own Promotional District unless the post had become an Exhausted Vacancy - which meant there were no applicants for it in that District.  By the late '60s this was beginning to break down especially for Guards jobs which gradually became less popular and the railways were increasingly recruiting into grades some way up the Promotional Diagrams straight off the street.  It was all widened out considerably - but still not to an all-line situation under `Stage 1 of the Pay & Efficiency Review in 1967/68 which largely destroyed the previous Promotion Diagrams due to the amalgamation of grades.

 

Clerical, supervisory, and management grade posts were advertised on an all-line basis fairly early after nationalisation and that remained the case until privatisation.  Again the prime criteria for many years was that the job should go to 'the senior suitable applicant' - although again with certain exceptions such as persons redundant in the grade.  However by the 1970s the seniority element was breaking down fairly seriously although it occasionally reared its head when a senior applicant (who knew he or she was the senior applicant) failed to get a job and requested the interview they were entitled to in such circumstances.  By the mid/late '70s in many cases the only time seniority was usually taken into account was in selecting candidates for interview and even that had gone by the board in most cases by the 1980s except where there might be a local applicant who would get to hear who was being interviewed and might get a bit peeved for being left out.  The only time when seniority really mattered in later years was when dealing with redundancies and during reorganisations but it was virtually ignored for management staff in the two big reorganisations of 1992 and '94 although rather oddly some account was taken of it for Senior Officer/Executive grade posts for both of those reorganisations.

[Supaned]

interesting reading Mike. I'm sure you've heard of the "professional road learners" who spent their days moving around the system , doing months of route and traction training , and then moving elsewhere and starting the process again without turning a wheel in anger - or is that more of a tale of legend?

 

I know that my TOC stipulates that a driver must be at their depot for three years before any move may be undertaken , subject to a vacancy being available , and drivers are not allowed to go onto the transfer list until they have completed that three year period.

[The Stationmaster]

interesting reading Mike. I'm sure you've heard of the "professional road learners" who spent their days moving around the system , doing months of route and traction training , and then moving elsewhere and starting the process again without turning a wheel in anger - or is that more of a tale of legend?

 

I know that my TOC stipulates that a driver must be at their depot for three years before any move may be undertaken , subject to a vacancy being available , and drivers are not allowed to go onto the transfer list until they have completed that three year period.

 

One idea of introducing Route Learning norms was to deal with the characters who took an awfully long time to learn roads - and there were some who didn't even need to move depots to do it.

 

Many years ago (late 1960s) a Driver said to me that you needed 3 weeks to learn any road - that was one week learning it, one week doing the garden, and one week painting the house.  I'm not sure if there was any truth in that tale as some roads would indeed take several weeks to learn and it might well be another reason why the idea of a Driver getting his ticket (log sheet of the day's work) stamped and signed by a supervisor at the far end of the route he was learning was brought in at some depots?

[Rugd1022]

There are still one or two professional road learners floating about believe me!

 

The earlier point about men moving up to London to gain their driving jobs rings very true - at Old Oak we had links filled with Welshmen, West Countrymen and a scattering of Scots. I think at one point we had eight or nine Williams, half a dozen Evanses and two Tom Jones! Many of the West Countrymen came up from Penzance, St.Blazey and Truro, all with very thick Cornish accents and woe betide any green young secendman who asked ''which part of Devon are you from then Drive...?''. Quite a few of the younger drivers came up from places like Didcot, Oxford, Banbury, Worcester etc. 

 

At Rugby on FLHH we have just the one link as we all do the same work, but the slight differences in route knowledge have to be worked around carefully by our excellent roster clerk (a member of this parish) in order to make sure jobs are covered, some of us sign more routes than others and when work drops off on one of these routes some drivers are keener than others to 'let them go' (remove them from their route cards). About a third of the lads sign the Midland as far north as Toton but the rest of us only go as far as Mountsorrel, some of us still sign Brum to Didcot and Aynho to Old Oak, plus Brum to Worcester, Stourbridge and Gloucester and we actually have a couple who have signed off the WCML south of Bletchley!

[TexChem]

So maybe a dumb question, what does route learning actually entail? Some things are perhaps obvious to those who work in the industry, but for those who do not, I am sure route learning involves more than simply learning the way.

[Mike Storey]

Generally the case.  In steam days men often went from provincial shed s to London, and other large cities, to get their Firing job but with a registered First Preference to go back to their 'home' shed.  Much the same happened increasingly in the 1970s as youngsters went to 'inner' area EMU depots/signing-on points on the Souther in order to get their Driving job and in many cases kept a First Preference to go back to their original depot.

 

Under BR the system worked on 'all line' seniority for Drivers but there was an order in which jobs were filled - thus if a vacancy arose for a Driver at, say, Depot A the first to be considered were any redundant men in the grade who were standing put back (i.e. were in a Secondman's post), then any men standing put back at any other depot with a preference in for Depot A, then men who had gone away to get their Driving job but had a First Preference in for Depot A, then the most senior Secondman who made an open application.

 

Preferences could be entered at any time but your were only allowed one change (unless made redundant in the grade) but preferences had to be cancelled no later than a week before the vacancy list appeared.  This could get quite interesting at times - for instance when HSTs went onto the West of England route there was quite a lot of change in the work at various depots and Penzance, in particular picked up a lot of driving turns which created vacancies and this meant the Seniority Date for Drivers suddenly changed from somewhen in 1945 to a date in the early 1960s.  One of my Drivers had a First Preference in for Penzance which he'd registered when he moved away for his driving job many years previously - he was duly called into the office, pointedly asked if he had forgotten to cancel his First Preference, he insisted that he hadn't and didn't want to (such notes could get lost in the system for a week or more ) and was then told he would be starting at Penzance the following Monday, he smiled and very cheerfully went home to tell his wife that they were moving.

 

Overall it was quite a good system and it always retained a degree of choice as men (and increasingly women) were allowed to register a preference for whatever depot they wanted to anywhere in the country and it was fairly efficient at filling jobs except at the least popular/most boring (work wise) depots.

 

In many respects the footplate staff were better off than other wages grades as they were not only restricted to what were called (their own) Promotion Diagram but were also only allowed to apply for a job in their own Promotional District unless the post had become an Exhausted Vacancy - which meant there were no applicants for it in that District.  By the late '60s this was beginning to break down especially for Guards jobs which gradually became less popular and the railways were increasingly recruiting into grades some way up the Promotional Diagrams straight off the street.  It was all widened out considerably - but still not to an all-line situation under `Stage 1 of the Pay & Efficiency Review in 1967/68 which largely destroyed the previous Promotion Diagrams due to the amalgamation of grades.

 

Clerical, supervisory, and management grade posts were advertised on an all-line basis fairly early after nationalisation and that remained the case until privatisation.  Again the prime criteria for many years was that the job should go to 'the senior suitable applicant' - although again with certain exceptions such as persons redundant in the grade.  However by the 1970s the seniority element was breaking down fairly seriously although it occasionally reared its head when a senior applicant (who knew he or she was the senior applicant) failed to get a job and requested the interview they were entitled to in such circumstances.  By the mid/late '70s in many cases the only time seniority was usually taken into account was in selecting candidates for interview and even that had gone by the board in most cases by the 1980s except where there might be a local applicant who would get to hear who was being interviewed and might get a bit peeved for being left out.  The only time when seniority really mattered in later years was when dealing with redundancies and during reorganisations but it was virtually ignored for management staff in the two big reorganisations of 1992 and '94 although rather oddly some account was taken of it for Senior Officer/Executive grade posts for both of those reorganisations.

 

Agree with what you say about drivers' progression - my elder brother was a BR secondman then driver, then Eurostar driver for nearly 40 years. He, like many, became a passed driver (at Old Oak Common) fairly quickly, but achieved full driver's seniority by moving to Cricklewood DMU depot, which was desperate for drivers pending the imminent Bed-Pan electrification, and then achieved his preference move back to OOC on redundancy once the electrics took over. In his late-twenties by then, he overtook over a dozen forty to fifty-year-olds who had stayed at OOC. After nearly two decades driving Eurostars on an annualised hours contract (which is a whole other story of administrative incompetence), he was offered voluntary redundancy (they were trying to save money again) with a payoff nearly equivalent to what his basic pay would have been if he had stayed until retirement. Nice one but somehow completely barmy, except probably to an accountant!

 

However, on the clerical and operations grades, in which I am more expert, our practice on the Southern and Eastern regions, and then InterCity and Provincial sectors, up to privatisation, was to always interview the senior applicant (up to CO5 and Supervisor E vacancies) whether he/she stood a hope in hell or not. This (almost) always avoided the inevitable grievance interview, and those that did pursue that right, could have their inadequacies (relative to the successful applicant) at the interview explained, rather than a more damaging "we didn't interview you because we think you are crap" type of explanation, in front of an eager staff rep. That said, I recall many senior applicants I interviewed were actually the best for the job, more usually in the operations grades.

[Mike Storey]

So maybe a dumb question, what does route learning actually entail? Some things are perhaps obvious to those who work in the industry, but for those who do not, I am sure route learning involves more than simply learning the way.

 

I am sure someone will provide the definitive list, but the primary requirement of a driver is to run his train to time, which usually means running at the maximum speed possible on each section of line. Starting and getting up to speed is not the hard bit, although a driver needs to know where to start accelerating and by how much in different conditions at different locations. The primary route knowledge a driver needs is to know when to start applying the brake (up to a mile and a quarter from full speed to a dead stop for HST's for example) to allow a reasonably tolerable deceleration - for signals, for station stops, at different lengths, for different braking loads, different traction types, in different weather conditions. Whilst much of that is increasingly done in simulators these days, there is nothing to compare to identifying local landmarks, objects or anything, from the cab of a real train, which will indicate where such braking should begin, especially at night or in bad weather. This was a much harder skill in steam days and with semaphore signalling. Some of this is beginning to change with in-cab signalling, which indicates an optimum speed at each stage of the journey and over-rules the driver if the recommended braking curve is exceeded, and so on, but that is confined to HS1 in Britain for the moment.

 

He/she also needs to know the location of signals (primarily for first "sighting"), their types and function at each location, the track layout at each junction and station and which signals or indications apply to which route and so on. They also need to know which type of signalling applies in each section of track, such as whether it is track circuited or not, or whether an electric token or a manual token is being used on single lines, for example. The safety rules in the event of a problem, accident or breakdown, are different in each case. There are (were, maybe now??) different rules to be applied during "fog or falling snow". Local knowledge for shunting limits and procedures at each depot or sidings is also vital, as are the length of sidings or platforms - will this 12 car unit I am driving fit into Platform 4 or has the signaller made a mistake?

 

Clearly they also need to know maximum speed limits for each type of train on each section of plain line and through turnouts/junctions - whilst speed limit signs are pretty universal now, they are not to be relied upon, even assuming they are far enough ahead for the driver to be able to reduce speed in time, and so on. They also need to be aware of which lines are electrified and which are not. There have been a number of occasions when drivers have accepted a route set by a signaller, when driving an electric loco or unit, only to become embarrassingly stranded on a non-electrified line. The signaller may have forgotten the train is electrically hauled or has been given/used the wrong train ID (which will usually inidcate the type of traction, but not always if there has been a set-swap in emergency, for example from an HST to a Class 91 + Mk IV's). In such cases, the driver is expected to stop and question the route.

 

There are also associated factors to learn about each of tunnels, cuttings, embankments and bridges, both for driving technique in different conditions and for emergencies, particularly for passenger evacuation.

 

Increasingly these days, there are other things to learn, such as the setting for the train to shore communications, stopping points to empty modern retention toilets at depots and so on.

 

Along with the traction types (how to start, drive and stop them, fault finding and rectification and so on) they need to learn and the plethora of rules and regulations, special instructions and the daily check they must make on changes to any of these affecting the routes they are about to drive, plus the regular knowledge tests (to check they have kept up to date) and medical examinations they go through, I don't begrudge them a penny of what they earn....

[TexChem]

I am sure someone will provide the definitive list, but the primary requirement of a driver is to run his train to time, which usually means running at the maximum speed possible on each section of line. Starting and getting up to speed is not the hard bit, although a driver needs to know where to start accelerating and by how much in different conditions at different locations. The primary route knowledge a driver needs is to know when to start applying the brake (up to a mile and a quarter from full speed to a dead stop for HST's for example) to allow a reasonably tolerable deceleration - for signals, for station stops, at different lengths, for different braking loads, different traction types, in different weather conditions. Whilst much of that is increasingly done in simulators these days, there is nothing to compare to identifying local landmarks, objects or anything, from the cab of a real train, which will indicate where such braking should begin, especially at night or in bad weather. This was a much harder skill in steam days and with semaphore signalling. Some of this is beginning to change with in-cab signalling, which indicates an optimum speed at each stage of the journey and over-rules the driver if the recommended braking curve is exceeded, and so on, but that is confined to HS1 in Britain for the moment.

 

He/she also needs to know the location of signals (primarily for first "sighting"), their types and function at each location, the track layout at each junction and station and which signals or indications apply to which route and so on. They also need to know which type of signalling applies in each section of track, such as whether it is track circuited or not, or whether an electric token or a manual token is being used on single lines, for example. The safety rules in the event of a problem, accident or breakdown, are different in each case. There are (were, maybe now??) different rules to be applied during "fog or falling snow". Local knowledge for shunting limits and procedures at each depot or sidings is also vital, as are the length of sidings or platforms - will this 12 car unit I am driving fit into Platform 4 or has the signaller made a mistake?

 

Clearly they also need to know maximum speed limits for each type of train on each section of plain line and through turnouts/junctions - whilst speed limit signs are pretty universal now, they are not to be relied upon, even assuming they are far enough ahead for the driver to be able to reduce speed in time, and so on. They also need to be aware of which lines are electrified and which are not. There have been a number of occasions when drivers have accepted a route set by a signaller, when driving an electric loco or unit, only to become embarrassingly stranded on a non-electrified line. The signaller may have forgotten the train is electrically hauled or has been given/used the wrong train ID (which will usually inidcate the type of traction, but not always if there has been a set-swap in emergency, for example from an HST to a Class 91 + Mk IV's). In such cases, the driver is expected to stop and question the route.

 

There are also associated factors to learn about each of tunnels, cuttings, embankments and bridges, both for driving technique in different conditions and for emergencies, particularly for passenger evacuation.

 

Increasingly these days, there are other things to learn, such as the setting for the train to shore communications, stopping points to empty modern retention toilets at depots and so on.

 

Along with the traction types (how to start, drive and stop them, fault finding and rectification and so on) they need to learn and the plethora of rules and regulations, special instructions and the daily check they must make on changes to any of these affecting the routes they are about to drive, plus the regular knowledge tests (to check they have kept up to date) and medical examinations they go through, I don't begrudge them a penny of what they earn....

Thanks a bunch.

[Gwiwer]

Drivers are required to learn, know and to sign for the knowledge of every route they are normally required to drive over.

 

That includes geography, signal siting and meaning, track layout, location of major structures, permanent and temporary speed restrictions, how to manage each different form of traction and train formation they are expected to drive and the full range of start-up and disposal processes, fault-finding and emergency procedures.  It typically takes over a year to train a driver from scratch in the modern environment and would take many years by progression under the old BR regime often starting with the future driver being a shed boy, cleaner or similar and working up as we have discussed above.

 

It is far from simple and while modern simulators are able to replicate the exact route and most environmental conditions they cannot precisely replicate the unique handling of each individual locomotive, unit or train.  Just as with driving cars each one differs and has its quirks.  That much comes from experience.

 

Route learning entails the trainee driver (sometimes more than one at a time) spending "live" time in the cab with a fully trained driver going over each route in turn often numerous times until it is learned.  Every six months, provided the driver has driven that route, they then signs to say they are qualified to drive that route.  If more than six months has elapsed they typically need a refresher.  I believe the current privatised environment offers a little leeway on the previously stringent ruling as some freight drivers might require very extensive route knowledge but only drive a route once in a blue moon.

 

Should a driver be required to drive a route they have not "signed" a pilot man (a driver or inspector passed over that route) is required to accompany them to advise them on route restrictions, signalling and braking.  If a train is unexpectedly signalled over a route not signed for the driver must stop and refuse the route, contact the signaller and seek advice.  That can happen in the event of emergency working arrangements or sometimes with charters taking unusual routes.  Very rarely it can happen as the result of a rostering error but such things are extremely uncommon and might be spotted by the driver as they sign on for duty thus averting a problem "on the road".

 

An interesting aside to the need for route learning is that there are in the public timetable quite a number of (often obscure) workings via rare curves or unusual routes largely for route-familiarisation rather than commercial need.  Examples which come to mind are the Overground workings between Wandsworth Road and Battersea Park instead of Clapham Junction, between Frodsham and Runcorn, Wigan NW and Newton-le-Willows and between Kensal Rise and Willesden Junction low level bay platform.  These odd workings can also serve the dual purpose of obviating closure of a short length of line and / or of running trains to and from depots with minimal shunting involved.

 

By contrast a coach or bus driver only needs to pass the appropriate driving test (typically an hour long) for the class of vehicle to be driven and does not require any route knowledge whatsoever before carrying fare-paying passengers ..... 

[roythebus]

To add to some of the excellent replies above, professional road learners:

 

Waterloo and most of the inner Southern depots had a plethora of these in the 1980's. these were men who had come from other depots, noticeably at Waterloo we had a large influx from Bedford. some of these men hardly ever drove a train in revenue service at Waterloo as they were always route learning. It wasn't really their fault but the way "the system" worked. There was a general shortage of drivers on the Southern. Men came from "away" to fill the vacancies. By the time they'd signed for routes, their preferred depot had a vacancy.

 

In my case, Waterloo was my first preference but third choice was Addiscombe, so for 2 years I was at Addiscombe. The first year there was at Waterloo South Side school, route-learning etc. and probably done about 9 months on the roster there (1 link only to answer the OP). I moved to Waterloo in about May 1980, but the South Eastern "forgot to tell me" so kept me at Addiscombe for another couple of weeks, unheard of! Waterloo had quite a network of routes and it could take many years to sign them all. People like myself would be working 13 out of 14 days to cover work, mostly repetitive Kingston loops, Chessington et al as a result it took ages to sign Portsmouth.

 

I never did get to sign "across the branch", Guildford to Ascot! But did sign Portsmouth. In my last few months there I was one of only 28 drivers out of the 200-odd there that signed Portsmouth, so a lot of my time was bombing up and down to Portsmouth! I then progressed to 3 link, started learning Bournemouth and the 33's and 73s. My departure from BR started over a route learning disagreement as I refused to sign Chertsey-West Byfleet curve as the depot manager refused to allow us a day to learn it. Staff at other depots were given a day for that. So having spent about 3 months learning Bournemouth, BR wasted a lot of money when they got rid of me. But I digress.

 

A driver once told me that knowing the route means knowing the last possible braking point. That way when you're running late, you know that if you're doing 100 at the bridge by the playground, you have to "put the lot on" to stop on the 10 mark at Little Gummersby! Remember too the driver has to know things like bridges, tunnels, every bump in the line in all weathers, fog, falling snow, night and sunshine. You can't slow down because it's foggy. The only person responsible for the movement of that train is the driver, not anyone else and if the driver has signed the route and something goes wrong then he is the one who will take the can back for that.

 

A another aside, I took part in a documentary after I left BR called " The Face in the Window" for BBC TV, and the final words in that were basically what I said above. I don't know if that's still available from the BBC but it was produced by a chap called Ray Hough and also featured Clive Croome of Bluebell Railway fame. It was about the problems of flexible rostering.

[Rugd1022]

Good point Roy about not slowing down in fog - on Monday night / Tuesday morning I had to work one of our regular jobs (6C75 Mountsorrel - Luton) via a diversionary route, it normally runs straight down the Midland but on this occasion I went via Syston Jcn, Manton Jcn and Corby, in a right pea souper. It's not a complicated route but there is a mix of semaphore and colour light signalling which includes a semaphore distant that's not easy to spot at night, never mind in thick fog! Some of the signals are very close to each other, no sooner have you left one box's patch, then your almost right on top of the next box's distant. I had over a thousand tons in tow so had to keep pressing on despite the conditions, as the gradients over this short but interesting route are deceptively steep in places. I should add that this was only my second run over the route since signing it a few weeks ago, with the first one also being in thick fog..... route knowledge is everything on this job!  .

 

There are times where a bit of local knowledge comes in handy, for instance although I'm a freight driver, knowing how the local services run on the WCML and MML helps me to save wear and tear on the brakes and fuel consumption, whilst maintaining momentum. On the MML, taking a train north from Cricklewood always means you're running between two stoppers on the Down Slow and nine times out of ten I know I'm going to get two yellows at Elstree for the red protecting Radlett Jcn up ahead. This often means that a southbound stopper is going to cross over in front of me at the junction from the Up Slow to the Up Fast, consequently I'm well prepared for it and hang back just enough so the unit can cross over and the bobby at West Hampstead box can reset the route for me to continue north. Hanging back at the single yellow, or just beyond it allows me to coast gently down the gradient and still stop at the red if needs be, but also allows me to power up and keep my momentum up if the route clears to a green aspect. There are several others places where I can do this and far from delaying anything behind me it can actually benefit me and the chap behind on the next down stopper.

[roythebus]

Agreed there Rugd. If you've read my running log in the "fastest Deltics" bit on here somewhere, yes, it was being thrashed to make up lost time, but a lot of lost time was also made up by knowing the road; where to apply power before the end of a speed restriction and the last possible braking point! I've also made up over 15 minutes on a fast summer Saturday Waterloo-Portsmouth train!

 

Remembering too in my days at rugby, working an 87 north with 1200 ton Freightliner in light drizzle, we almost ground to a stand near Bushey. Got going again and the driver suggested giving it full power through Watford Tunnel (on the fast) to make the most of the dry rail in the tunnel. What we didn't account for was the wet patch under the ventilation shaft; there was a whizzzzzz, an almighty bang as the overloads tripped out, and we had to stop, reset everything and start again.

 

That's the sort of stuff no route learning school can ever teach you.

[big jim]

when i started in chester in the early 2000s there were 3 links, top, middle and starter

 

top did the loco hauled stuff and a few did london (for the short lived FNW service to there) they also did birmingham via the wcml

 

middle did llandudno, manchester, holyhead, crewe etc (as did top link)

 

starter was as it sounds, basically doing the shed, llandudnos, manchester, crewe, wrexham-bidston

 

it took me about 6 months from passing out to spread my wings into the bottom link and go to such exotic places as holyhead then another 6 months or so to get over the cheshire lines (manchester via altringham) then a few months more to do crewe to warrington via the wcml and finally birmingham via shrewsbury

 

generally 'top link' had better start and finish times, shorter jobs, less 'stressful' work

 

when i went to DRS there was the workers link and the shirkers link, i was in the workers link doing intermodals all hours of the day while the 'chosen ones' got the cushy turns and things like the passenger work, local nuclear jobs etc

 

fastline was one link doing everything

 

chiltern was also one link at both marylebone and moor st so everyone did everything and signed everywhere from the outset of passing out

 

colas is a bit different as all the drivers work from home and have both booked regular work as well as ad-hoc moves and services depending on work requirements, some drivers dont like going new places and enjoy the security of being on the same few jobs week in week out knowing when they will be done etc, other of us with big route knowledge get utilised all over the shop

 

it feels like sometimes rosters just throw the diagrams in the air and see who's name it lands on!

 

as for professional road learners, i was asked by chiltern (marcus37 in fact) to refresh birmingham to crewe as no one else was interested in doing it, 3 days into it i was stopped from doing it by the local aslef rep "as i was a new driver", (having been there 2 years), it turns out someone had noticed i'd worked a couple of rest days doing it and he'd thrown his dummy out of the pram despite the fact the had no intention of ever wanting to learn the route!!

 

i've had freight drivers road learning with me who claim they dont need to know the station names as "they are freight drivers and dont need to know as we dont stop", all well and good until you break down and dont know where you are!,

[Rugd1022]

''Big Jim - The Man Who Gets About A Bit''... in a cinema near you from Friday!

 

That last paragraph about road learners (presumably fairly recently mate?) rings alarm bells and is something I've heard from mates at other depots. I might sound like an old git / old hand saying this and it's not my intention at all, but I've heard that some graduate drivers taken on in the last year or so are becoming very cocky on their first 'solo' trip out once they've signed their first route, it's not a good way to start your career on the railway, at all. Carry on like that and something will bite you, very hard. Freight man or passenger, you learn the road properly and that means every bloody inch of it, whether you think you need to know it or not! You might never stop a freight train in or near a particular station, but the day you fail there or catch fire and need to know the nearest access point for the signalman to send the emergency services too is the day the penny really drops into place. Some years ago when I was still with EWS I failed in the dip near Chester Road on the Sutton Park line, my poor old 60 was a dead duck and I needed assistance. I went through the motions and made sure the signalman knew exactly where I was and that the assisting driver knew exactly where I'd be when he eventually arrived (from Worcester!), 300 yards from the rear of the train. Being pushed from there all the way into Bescot, it was once again a case of both of us knowing the road intimately as he couldn't always see me at the front on the tightish bends. He knew where he was, he knew the length of my train and he knew exactly where to stop if needed.

 

As for tunnels, you soon find out where the dry and wet patches are! Glaston and Corby tunnels can be very bad for this and Beechwood on the Rugby - Cov line is extremely damp at times - I skidded through it going light engine once but thankfully no real damage was done to the wheelsets. The old ticker had a bit of a flutter before I regained traction though...

[The Stationmaster]

 

A driver once told me that knowing the route means knowing the last possible braking point. That way when you're running late, you know that if you're doing 100 at the bridge by the playground, you have to "put the lot on" to stop on the 10 mark at Little Gummersby! Remember too the driver has to know things like bridges, tunnels, every bump in the line in all weathers, fog, falling snow, night and sunshine. You can't slow down because it's foggy. The only person responsible for the movement of that train is the driver, not anyone else and if the driver has signed the route and something goes wrong then he is the one who will take the can back for that.

 

Sums it up perfectly Roy.  Someone told me many years ago that you didn't know a road properly until you could go over it blindfolded and know exactly where you were all the time - didn't help with observing signal of course  I don't think so many folk work to that standard nowadays and of course many men simply didn't know every detail - especially of moves they never usually made - back in the 'old days'.   I remember one Sunday morning we were Single Line Working between Bedwyn and Savernake over the Up and a London (Old Oak) man arrived with a down West of England at Bedwyn was was asked to drop down clear of the dummy ready to set back  - to which came the response 'what ****ing dummy?' - he'd being firing and driving over the route for years but had never had occasion before to reverse through that crossover and being on a curve he couldn't see it (but he could see us,m and the crossover.

 

Agree with what you say about drivers' progression - my elder brother was a BR secondman then driver, then Eurostar driver for nearly 40 years. ... After nearly two decades driving Eurostars on an annualised hours contract (which is a whole other story of administrative incompetence), he was offered voluntary redundancy (they were trying to save money again) with a payoff nearly equivalent to what his basic pay would have been if he had stayed until retirement. Nice one but somehow completely barmy, except probably to an accountant!

 

Ah, so you're his brother, always wondered why the name rang a bell!  Yes he did have very strong views about the Annual Hours contract and he was right about the difficulties of administering it (and something you didn't mention which affected some of the early Driver groups when they were the ones who could actually do a lot of the work and others couldn't so hours became very disproportionate) but overall it wasn't a bad system, the big problem was record keeping without the software to do the job.  Eurostar UK Drivers were always going to lose a lot of work once CTRL/HS1 opened hence I suspect part of the need to cut back plus the changes which came with privatisation and loss of other expected work which never materilaised

 

Trust he's keeping well - he and I sometimes come across each other at model railway exhibitions, small world.

 

Edit to correct typo

[roythebus]

Knowing the road, as I've probably mentioned on another thread, working with a Rugby driver at Crewe TMD, he told me of the driver who came off the road going into or out of the TMD. What he didn't know was there was a set of trap points which the 2nd man had to pull over to make the move. He'd only ever gone into the depot, never out of it, and never had the need to know about the trap points!

 

In my first days at KX I was on an evening Cambridge stopper, 31 and 6 suburbans. First day the driver says "I'll drive today, you drive tomorrow". Well tomorrow was foggy, and approaching somewhere like Foxton, a short platform, he told me the braking point was an overbridge.  We didn't see or hear the bridge; the last braking point was a pway hut which we did see, and stopped in the platform. Baffled, he said "they don't move bridges".

 

The next evening was not foggy, he was driving, and approaching "the bridge" we noticed a line of brick dust across the track. The bridge had been demolished over the weekend to make way for the OLE!! Read your weekly notices is also a requirement!

[The Stationmaster]

A Driver was out learning the road on a train worked by a colleague from the same depot.  The road learner was known by everyone as someone who took great care when road learning and who kept copious notes regarding landmarks etc.  As they approached Basingstoke from the west (and this is a good many years ago so there was little more than fields) he started to note something in his book so the other Driver asked him what he had written down as he couldn't think of anything noteworthy just there.  Back came the answer 'that yellow crane over in that field' - poor bloke hardly dare put his face in the mess room for several weeks after that.