1970s partially fitted freight train formation

[YK 50A]

Hi,

 

I've just acquired 14 of 16 ton mineral wagons.  I already have 2 late BR Brown/Bauxite standard 20 ton brake vans, one apparently piped and the other fitted.

 

I have seen plenty of examples of a mixture of wagon types (some fitted) essentially making up an unfitted train, but with a partially fitted rake, would most (or all) of the fitted wagons have been marshalled next to the locomotive?  Would there have been any advantage to coupling some or all of the fitted wagons to the brake van and allowing the guard to operate (some of) the train brakes or would that have only worked if the train was piped throughout?

 

Some clarification would be appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 

Alun

[Edwin_m]

The brake van was not able to produce vacuum so could not operate the vacuum brakes on other vehicles - the guard only had control of the handbrake on the van itself.  A piped or fitted van would probably also have a brake valve for the guard's use, but this could only be used to apply the brakes if there was a continuous brake pipe between the van and the loco.  Similar for air brakes in later days. 

 

Hence a partly fitted train would have the fitted or piped wagons immediately behind the loco forming the "fitted head".  Anything after the first non-piped wagon would be hand braked only. 

[TheWeatheringMan]

Hi,

 

I've just acquired 14 of 16 ton mineral wagons.  I already have 2 late BR Brown/Bauxite standard 20 ton brake vans, one apparently piped and the other fitted.

 

I have seen plenty of examples of a mixture of wagon types (some fitted) essentially making up an unfitted train, but with a partially fitted rake, would most (or all) of the fitted wagons have been marshalled next to the locomotive?  Would there have been any advantage to coupling some or all of the fitted wagons to the brake van and allowing the guard to operate (some of) the train brakes or would that have only worked if the train was piped throughout?

 

Some clarification would be appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 

Alun

Hi,

Firstly in a partially fitted freight the leading group of wagons that provided the 'fitted head' would be connected to the locomotive train brake pipe so that the driver had command of the additional brake power of those wagons,

Obviously only 'fitted' wagons would have an operative brake controlled by the driver.

The 'fitted head' might contain several wagons that only had a through pipe (known to railwaymen as 'blow throughs') - these would have their pipes connected together so as to maintain the connection to the actual 'fitted' wagons.

At the point the first 'unfitted' wagon was met the train pipe would be terminated on the 'dummy' fixed to the drawbar.

From then on the wagons would be 'unbraked' (often refered to by railwaymen as 'loose coupled' or 'swingers') - they did of course have lever operated handbrakes.

This continued to the back of the train - this part of the train might contain 'blow throughs' or fully fitted wagons but these would run as 'unbraked' as no connection to the locomotive was possible.

The rear of the train would be completed by a brake van (guards van) - this might be an unfitted, 'blow through' or fully fitted type but in any case was again 'loose coupled' with the guard in charge of the handbrake wheel therein.

If the whole train was formed of fully fitted and 'blow through' wagons including the brake van such that the train pipe could be connected right through to the van then yes the advantage was sometimes taken to do this so that the guard had access to the automatic brake via the 'brake setter' in his van. In an emergency this could be an advantage of course but involved the extra work by the guard or a shunter of connecting all the pipes ('bags') together - something not all railwayment were prepared to do.

It should be noted that whilst a fitted or 'blow through' van would have a vacuum gauge ('clock' in railway language) and a brake valve ('setter') that the brake was under the control of the driver and that the guard was forbidden to operate same except in an emergency situation or for a brake test before leaving a yard or if the train had been broken to pick up or set down wagons.

Several interesting points arrise from these situations:

If all the wagons were able to be connected to the loco trainpipe but the brake van was an unfitted or 'blow through' type then the train was still a partly fitted train as the van still had no working automatic brake - a 'blow through' gave the guard access to the brake but was in itself not 'fitted' - then the train still had to run as a Class 8 train and carry both a taillamp and two sidelights on the rear.

However if the van was itself 'fitted' and thus had a working automatic brake then the train could run as a fully fitted train an display only a taillamp to the rear, not requiring to display sidelights. With the agreement of Control the train's headcode could be upgraded to Class 6 - which had advantages when it came to priority in loops etc.

 

Hope the above might be of interest.

Regard

[TheWeatheringMan]

Hi,

 

I've just acquired 14 of 16 ton mineral wagons.  I already have 2 late BR Brown/Bauxite standard 20 ton brake vans, one apparently piped and the other fitted.

 

I have seen plenty of examples of a mixture of wagon types (some fitted) essentially making up an unfitted train, but with a partially fitted rake, would most (or all) of the fitted wagons have been marshalled next to the locomotive?  Would there have been any advantage to coupling some or all of the fitted wagons to the brake van and allowing the guard to operate (some of) the train brakes or would that have only worked if the train was piped throughout?

 

Some clarification would be appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 

Alun

Hi,

Just to a little bit to my post - this might give a few a laugh.

 

A Class 6 freight was a fully fitted train such as the Mendip stone trains comprising of 'minfit' wagons.

This class of train normally had no brake van at the rear and the tail lamp was carried on a bracket on the last wagon - most fully fitted wagons had by then been fitted with a lamp bracket except for petrol tankers.

The goods guard rode in the rear cab of the locomotive (or the cab of the rear loco when a pair of Class 20's were used).

 

Now a train upgraded to Class 6 as I described met all the requirements for the guard to ride on the loco as far as braking and lamping was concerned but despite this the goods guard still had to ride on the brake van simply due to the fact that it was present.

Anyone who has ever ridden in a goods brake on the main line will tell you that it could be a rough ride sometimes - and ruddy cold in winter if there was no coal for the stove!.

Oh happy days of my late youth.

Regards

[Dave Scott]

The only thing I would add is that the brake test for the fitted head would be done at the last fitted vehicle to ensure the brakes on the fitted head actually worked and prove the vac bags were coupled.

[The Stationmaster]

 

Several interesting points arrise from these situations:

If all the wagons were able to be connected to the loco trainpipe but the brake van was an unfitted or 'blow through' type then the train was still a partly fitted train as the van still had no working automatic brake - a 'blow through' gave the guard access to the brake but was in itself not 'fitted' - then the train still had to run as a Class 8 train and carry both a taillamp and two sidelights on the rear.

However if the van was itself 'fitted' and thus had a working automatic brake then the train could run as a fully fitted train an display only a taillamp to the rear, not requiring to display sidelights. With the agreement of Control the train's headcode could be upgraded to Class 6 - which had advantages when it came to priority in loops etc.

 

Hope the above might be of interest.

Regard

Not quite correct - Class 6 trains were authorised to convey a piped only brakevan (and thus remained as a Class 6 train).

[Dave Scott]

Small point you do not need a bracket to fix a tail laamp to a fully fitted train without brake van. You can hang the standard BR lamp on the drawhook. The funny shape of the handle was a suggestion from a shunter or guard as lamps with normal handles night fall off. The narrow part of the handle is a snug fit on a drawhook and will retain the lamp securely. I believe the idea received a good sugestion payment

[TheWeatheringMan]

The only thing I would add is that the brake test for the fitted head would be done at the last fitted vehicle to ensure the brakes on the fitted head actually worked and prove the vac bags were coupled.

Hi,

Absolutely correct of course.

My reference to the van was assuming the 'bags' were connected right to the van.

Have had to pull the pipe off the dummy at the end of the fitted head whilst standing in 6 inches of filthy water in a siding at Oxford South Yard, Reading West Junction or Acton a few times back in the early 1970's, then having got out to kick the brake shoes to check  having to stand back in the water to put the pipe on the dummy - all in the pouring rain with whats running off my BR 'Girtex' mac soaking my trousers as well.

But climbing into a lovely warm van for the next hour or so was heaven.

Had a pipe 'come off the dummy' one day and being at the back of about 20 'swingers' behind the fitted head was thrown hard against the front wall of the van - not funny for me and it frightened the Hinksey South signalman badly as when he heard the buffers 'clash' he thought we had come off the road.

But if I could do it all again tomorrow..............i'd be there like a shot.

 

Regards

[TheWeatheringMan]

Not quite correct - Class 6 trains were authorised to convey a piped only brakevan (and thus remained as a Class 6 train).

When I was a goods guard a class 6 was a fully fitted train and a blow through van would not meet the requirements to have all fully fitted vehicles.

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

Aft'noon all,

 

The stipulations for individual train classes changed continually along the years, thus, a particular BR document and date would need to be quoted with each instance to make an individual statement valid.

 

In some instances absolute opposite instructions occured within a few years.

 

Dave

[TheWeatheringMan]

Small point you do not need a bracket to fix a tail laamp to a fully fitted train without brake van. You can hang the standard BR lamp on the drawhook. The funny shape of the handle was a suggestion from a shunter or guard as lamps with normal handles night fall off. The narrow part of the handle is a snug fit on a drawhook and will retain the lamp securely. I believe the idea received a good sugestion payment

Hi,

Sorry but when I was a goods guard this was permitted only for local moves when authorised by the local working instructions - we had several such moves authorised at Oxford such as between the diesel depot and south yard or the station and NCL shed.

Hanging the tail lamp on the drawhook was not generally authorised for main line working but was permitted if for example a tail lamp bracket came adrift (it did happen) in order to work the train forward to clear the line after being stopped by a signalman under the 'train passed without tail lamp' signalling regulation.

Unless the rule about tail lamps on drawhooks changed after I moved on to other things it wasnt generally allowed in my day.

Regards

[TheWeatheringMan]

Aft'noon all,

 

The stipulations for individual train classes changed continually along the years, thus, a particular BR document and date would need to be quoted with each instance to make an individual statement valid.

 

In some instances absolute opposite instructions occured within a few years.

 

Dave

Hi,

This is of course so very true.

As railwaymen we often found that a working practice deeply embedded in our minds was suddenly reversed because someone thought that they knew a better way to do something than time served railwaymen.

Regards

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

....BR documents were simply disclaimers built upon and expanded/altered by incidents which occurred over time. Changes were not necessarily implemented by anyone with a thorough operating knowledge of railways.

 

If all rules & regs were observed to the nth degree then no trains would run.

 

Dave

[The Stationmaster]

When I was a goods guard a class 6 was a fully fitted train and a blow through van would not meet the requirements to have all fully fitted vehicles.

Class 6 became the fully fitted freight class in the 1968 alterations to classifications and from then on piped brakevans were permitted, the same applied in the 1972 GA as printed and was still in place in the 1976 alterations but of course by then brakevans had in any case been abolished on fully fitted freights (unless there was some reason for providing one).  The same Instruction still applied in 1986 when the final supplement to the 1972 GA was issued.  And It was still the case in the combined book up to at least 1998 and had, for obvious reasons by then been extended to cover Class 7 & 8 trains as well.

 

Thus for the whole history of Class 6 freight trains, as fully fitted, from 1968 until at least 1998 (I don't have all the subsequent amendments) it was permissible to run them with a piped only brakevan if a van was needed (the Guard of course had to travel in it).

[Rivercider]

Going back to the OP, it depends on your layout and what type of freight services you are operating.

Shunters and train crew would not normally do any more shunting than they had to.

If your coal trains are short distance slow speed moves over routes with no severe gradients then possibly

no effort would be made to shunt the fitted wagons to the front of the train and couple up the brake pipes as the loco brake would suffice.

If the train was a longer distance move, or running over a hilly route where extra brake power was needed

then the fitted 16t minerals would be at the front, or possibly if you have other vacuum braked traffic, like vanfits,

they would be marshalled next to the loco instead to provide the brake force,

 

cheers 

[YK 50A]

Thanks all,

 

A more succinct way of asking my question would have been "can a brake van create a vacuum"?  The answer being no.  What prompted it is that I have seen a few pictures of a line of brown wagons next to the locomotive, another one or two next to the brake van, with grey unfitted wagons in between.  I wondered if there might be a technical reason as opposed to a trip working, avoidance of unnecessary shunting, etc.

 

I am also appreciative of the anecdotes.

 

Thanks again,

Alun

[Rivercider]

Thanks all,

 

A more succinct way of asking my question would have been "can a brake van create a vacuum"?  The answer being no.  What prompted it is that I have seen a few pictures of a line of brown wagons next to the locomotive, another one or two next to the brake van, with grey unfitted wagons in between.  I wondered if there might be a technical reason as opposed to a trip working, avoidance of unnecessary shunting, etc.

 

I am also appreciative of the anecdotes.

 

Thanks again,

Alun

In this context the train may have been marshalled with  fitted head at both ends for a service that is booked to reverse en-route,

 

cheers

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

...there

 

Thanks all,

 

A more succinct way of asking my question would have been "can a brake van create a vacuum"?  The answer being no.  What prompted it is that I have seen a few pictures of a line of brown wagons next to the locomotive, another one or two next to the brake van, with grey unfitted wagons in between.  I wondered if there might be a technical reason as opposed to a trip working, avoidance of unnecessary shunting, etc.

 

I am also appreciative of the anecdotes.

 

Thanks again,

Alun

 

Hi Alun,

 

The entire train may have been unfitted...a wagon with automatic brakes doesn't necessarily always have them in use.

 

Dave

[flyingsignalman]

Often the local trip (a class 8 train) from Birkenhead to Ellesmere Port would go past my box with the alleged fitted head not coupled to the loco.

 

Regarding warm brake vans, one winter at Port Sunlight the trip came up from Birkenhead with about 20 on and was to stop and pick up another 10 or so wagons and brake. The guard wasn't going to lose his warm van for the cold one in the sidings as usual! He unhooked the van on the main line and the train drew forward to shunt into the sidings, picked up the waiting wagons and van then getting the signal drew the lot out onto the main line. I reset the points and a wave of the newspaper later the train set back onto his nice warm van,coupled up and went on it's way. Never mind the following passenger was delayed by about 5 minutes!

[YK 50A]

In this context the train may have been marshalled with  fitted head at both ends for a service that is booked to reverse en-route...

 

Or the remnants of a fitted head at the rear, or in the marshalling there was enough of a fitted head at the front to to brake the train, or...  I imagine there are many possibilities.  I'm happy with the fact regarding the inability to create a vacuum from the brake van and a load of anecdotes along the way.

 

The entire train may have been unfitted...a wagon with automatic brakes doesn't necessarily always have them in use.

 

Dave

 

Thanks Dave, like I wrote in my opening post, "I have seen plenty of examples of a mixture of wagon types (some fitted) essentially making up an unfitted train..."

 

Alun

[The Stationmaster]

Most local trips ran loose coupled irrespective of what wagons they contained - as already pointed out it saved work = time saved = an early finish or a nice extended break 'somewhere'.

[kevinlms]

Hi,

This is of course so very true.

As railwaymen we often found that a working practice deeply embedded in our minds was suddenly reversed because someone thought that they knew a better way to do something than time served railwaymen.

Regards

Didn't the regulations change, largely because the percentage of fitted wagons, gradually got higher & higher & advantage was taken to increase the train speeds. Of course that kind of failed when during the 60s, with derailments caused by faster running on CWR, with the traditional wagon suspension not being up to it, leading to speed reductions. Eventually solved by building modern wagons.

[Flood]

Hi Alun,

 

The entire train may have been unfitted...a wagon with automatic brakes doesn't necessarily always have them in use.

 

Dave

 

 

 

Thanks Dave, like I wrote in my opening post, "I have seen plenty of examples of a mixture of wagon types (some fitted) essentially making up an unfitted train..."

 

Alun

 

This leads to the example of when is an unfitted train not an unfitted train.

 

In supplement No.3 to the General Appendix (dated 1978) a Class 8 train is described as:

Freight train, not fully fitted, but with brake force not less than that shown in Part 6, Section E of the Working Manual for Rail Staff.

 

A Class 9 train is described as:

Unfitted freight train (where specially authorised)...

 

All good so far but if you have a rake of about 40 empty mineral wagons on a route with gradients no steeper than about 1/100 then a pair of 20s alone have enough brake force to run the train as a Class 8. So even though the first wagon (or more) could be unfitted the train would not have to be a Class 9.

 

Strictly speaking Class 7 and Class 8 trains with wagons with instanter couplings should have them in the short position and Class 9 trains should have instanter couplings in the long position. The question is how often would the shunter at a power station forming a rake of empties be bothered to make sure all the couplings were in the short position?

 

Class 8 trains tended to run at about 35mph and Class 9 trains at about 25mph so the timings for a rake of empties may have been so slack that the driver could run at 25mph anyway, possibly being advised to do so by the guard due to the couplings not being in the short position.

[Fat Controller]

...there

 

 

Hi Alun,

 

The entire train may have been unfitted...a wagon with automatic brakes doesn't necessarily always have them in use.

 

Dave

Sometimes with disastrous consequences, and without the  driver's knowledge. There was a regular working between Ravenscraig and Trostre that used SAB wagons. These, like many of the early air-brake wagons, had vacuum through pipes, so that individual wagons could work within the more numerous vacuum-braked trains. One day, for whatever reason, the person marshalling the train in Scotland coupled all the vacuum pipes in the train together, and then to the locomotives. When the driver did the brake test, he did so on the air brake, which seemed to be satisfactory. The train left, and ran without incident, at least until the descent of Beattock bank. The driver then found that he no longer had control over his train; this state continued until the whole thing ended up in a big heap behind Quintinshill 'box.

[The Stationmaster]

Didn't the regulations change, largely because the percentage of fitted wagons, gradually got higher & higher & advantage was taken to increase the train speeds. Of course that kind of failed when during the 60s, with derailments caused by faster running on CWR, with the traditional wagon suspension not being up to it, leading to speed reductions. Eventually solved by building modern wagons.

In many respects 'yes'.  What happened was that the wagon fleet shrunk thus the percentage of fitted wagons increased - as you said.

 

Thus gradually over time the old Class C freight (which was auto brake operative on not less than 50% of vehicles) turned into the Class 4 (auto brake operative on not less than 90%) which ultimately turned into Class 6 (fully fitted, then later 'at least the Brake Force shown in Section E of the WMRS').  In the meanwhile because of the derailments various speed limits were imposed on 4 wheel vehicles from the early 1960s onwards which resulted in 55/60mph restriction being placed on the most effectively braked (vacuum system) freights.