LMS CCTs on GW metals?

[OnTheBranchline]

Hi,

 

I was just wondering if any of the LMS CCT vans would have ran on the GWR before nationalization? I am tempted to buy one if it's prototypical enough.

[Fat Controller]

If it's the new Hornby one you're thinking about, then the first didn't arrive until the eve of WW2; I'm not sure, but I suspect that during the conflict, parcels stock may have been more-or-less common user, and so might have popped up anywhere. Most of this design were built by BR, with the final examples leaving Swindon Works in 1956.

[asmay2002]

Hi,

 

I was just wondering if any of the LMS CCT vans would have ran on the GWR before nationalization? I am tempted to buy one if it's prototypical enough.

The era of unloading one company's vehcile and then loading all of the stuff into another companies ended in the early 19th century.

[gwrrob]

So I could justify one of the Hornby Eastern long versions just released then.

[The Stationmaster]

The era of unloading one company's vehcile and then loading all of the stuff into another companies ended in the early 19th century.

I think there was a slight slip of the time machine there

[OnTheBranchline]

I think there was a slight slip of the time machine there

 

I call my time machine, Rule No 1.

[Fat Controller]

The era of unloading one company's vehcile and then loading all of the stuff into another companies ended in the early 19th century.

20th, surely?

[Grovenor]

 

The era of unloading one company's vehcile and then loading all of the stuff into another companies ended in the early 19th century.

Mid to late 19th I would suggest, was not that the main reason why the broad gauge was converted?

Keith

[BenL]

If it's the new Hornby one you're thinking about, then the first didn't arrive until the eve of WW2; I'm not sure, but I suspect that during the conflict, parcels stock may have been more-or-less common user, and so might have popped up anywhere. Most of this design were built by BR, with the final examples leaving Swindon Works in 1956.

But doesn't the 'N' in front of the number on the Hornby LMS CCT mean that it is not common user? I would be happy if this wasn't the case as I wouldn't mind one on my GWR layout.

[The Fatadder]

But doesn't the 'N' in front of the number on the Hornby LMS CCT mean that it is not common user? I would be happy if this wasn't the case as I wouldn't mind one on my GWR layout.

I thought that just means that after delivering the load to the destination it needs to be returned to the LMS (unlike a common user LMS open which upon delivery in the gwr, the would load it and send it onto somewhere else

 

If I see one of those LNER ccvs on sale at rmweb live it will be coming home with me!

[BenL]

None common user meant that a LMS CCT delivering goods from an LMS station to a GWR station was not allowed to be reloaded at the GWR station, and sent to a LNER station as it could only be returned empty to the exchange sidings between the LMS and GWR so yes once it was loaded it could go to any station in the country regardless of the company that owned the destination station.

 

So yes it could be mixed in a parcel train with other companies parcel coaches

 

Thanks very much for this and Fatadder's explanation of how the not common user arrangement worked, I best get an order in!

[OnTheBranchline]

My question also applies to the LNER CCTs.

[Andy W]

The LNER long CCTs would have run on the GWR as well, it's more a matter of where on the GWR you're modelling. There were through trains off the GC line onto the GW via Banbury, and of couse just a little further south the GWR and LNER had joint running between Ashendon Junction and the Ruislip area where Sheffield - Marylebone and Birmingham-Paddington trains shared tracks. There were also direct interchanges in the Wrexham area, apart from the well known transfer workings round North London off the GN and GE sections.

So Thames Valley, Swindon, South Wales main line, quite likely. Cornish branches, less so.

 

In wartime of course anything could have happened and pre-and-post war there was the very popular but seldom modelled Passengers Luggage In Advance service where the railway parcels department collected your luggage from your house, took it to your holiday destination, and delivered it to your hotel or boarding house, repeating the exercise at the end of the holiday. Passenger rated vans were very often used for the rail portion of the journey. So here's an excuse for one if the area you're modelling contains a busy seaside resort, I'm thinking more Torbay size than say Looe to provide enough traffic to justify working a large sized van through.

 

These vans weren't common user either, but there is one added feature of the RCH agreements - a non-common-user vehicle didn't have to be returned empty to the nearest exchange siding for its owner if it was possible to return it to a destination on its owner's network loaded, unless it was branded as return empty only. Quite often these passenger-rated vans were assigned to specific flows if they were regular enough so would work back the next day following diagrammed workings either on parcels trains or attached to passenger services.

[31A]

The LNER long CCTs would have run on the GWR as well, it's more a matter of where on the GWR you're modelling. There were through trains off the GC line onto the GW via Banbury, and of couse just a little further south the GWR and LNER had joint running between Ashendon Junction and the Ruislip area where Sheffield - Marylebone and Birmingham-Paddington trains shared tracks. There were also direct interchanges in the Wrexham area, apart from the well known transfer workings round North London off the GN and GE sections.

So Thames Valley, Swindon, South Wales main line, quite likely. Cornish branches, less so.

 

In wartime of course anything could have happened and pre-and-post war there was the very popular but seldom modelled Passengers Luggage In Advance service where the railway parcels department collected your luggage from your house, took it to your holiday destination, and delivered it to your hotel or boarding house, repeating the exercise at the end of the holiday. Passenger rated vans were very often used for the rail portion of the journey. So here's an excuse for one if the area you're modelling contains a busy seaside resort, I'm thinking more Torbay size than say Looe to provide enough traffic to justify working a large sized van through.

 

These vans weren't common user either, but there is one added feature of the RCH agreements - a non-common-user vehicle didn't have to be returned empty to the nearest exchange siding for its owner if it was possible to return it to a destination on its owner's network loaded, unless it was branded as return empty only. Quite often these passenger-rated vans were assigned to specific flows if they were regular enough so would work back the next day following diagrammed workings either on parcels trains or attached to passenger services.

The PLA arrangement didn't just apply to seaside resorts but could be used between any locations in the UK.  When I worked at Cambridge station in the late 70s / early 80s students still made considerable use of it at the beginning and end of terms and it caused a lot of extra passenger-rated traffic - presumably this applied at other university cities, as well as elsewhere.

[Fat Controller]

The PLA arrangement didn't just apply to seaside resorts but could be used between any locations in the UK.  When I worked at Cambridge station in the late 70s / early 80s students still made considerable use of it at the beginning and end of terms and it caused a lot of extra passenger-rated traffic - presumably this applied at other university cities, as well as elsewhere.

It did apply around the country; it was the swansong of the 'steamer trunk'; I suspect the arrangement was that the luggage was charged per item, so people would cram in as much stuff as possible. I presume most halls-of-residence had storage facilities for the empty trunks during term-time, as I can't remember seeing them in peoples' rooms. Virgin seem to be trying to relaunch the idea, judging by the E-mail we got this morning; £9.90 per item, with collection and delivery by carrier. It's come at just the right time for Lynne's trip north for Christmas.

Other sources of large amounts of luggage, often at small stations, would be boarding schools and military establishments; the numbers of people and associated baggage could be very significant.

[31A]

It did apply around the country; it was the swansong of the 'steamer trunk'; I suspect the arrangement was that the luggage was charged per item, so people would cram in as much stuff as possible. I presume most halls-of-residence had storage facilities for the empty trunks during term-time, as I can't remember seeing them in peoples' rooms. Virgin seem to be trying to relaunch the idea, judging by the E-mail we got this morning; £9.90 per item, with collection and delivery by carrier. It's come at just the right time for Lynne's trip north for Christmas.

Other sources of large amounts of luggage, often at small stations, would be boarding schools and military establishments; the numbers of people and associated baggage could be very significant.

I was going to say it finished (on BR) with the end of the Collection & Delivery Parcels Service but actually think it went on longer than that as long as the passenger took it to / from the station themselves, as parcels offices still accepted non Red Star traffic on a station to station basis.  Interesting that Virgin are trying to relaunch it; anything to reduce luggage in passenger saloons which aren't suitable for it has to be a good thing!

[Andy W]

In GWR days there were universities on its network at Bristol, Birmingham, Cardiff, Oxford and London (Birkenhead would have handled Liverpool traffic). BR WR of course ended up with many more as new ones were created post-war. There would have been more boarding schools in GW days than later as they started to go out of fashion postwar with the decline of empire. But the other major irregular flows would have been military, with sailors to and from Plymouth and also Dartmouth Naval College, the army all over the place and holding exercises on Salisbury Plain, and the RAF rapidly expanding in the late 1930s and opening new aerodromes and camps. Post war continuing conscription meant loads of servicemen and women being moved from one base to another. All good sources of loads for passenger-rated vans. ,

[Penlan]

Would the CCt's have been used for Pigeon Specials?
Certainly in the pre-grouping era, there's pictures at Weymouth with a wide variety of 'northern' companies stock being unloaded of Pigeon crates.

[The Stationmaster]

Would the CCt's have been used for Pigeon Specials?

Certainly in the pre-grouping era, there's pictures at Weymouth with a wide variety of 'northern' companies stock being unloaded of Pigeon crates.

The preferred vehicles for pigeon traffic were those with fold-down tables (apart from specialised Pigeon Vans of course) but in typical railway fashion I'm sure anything which could be loaded and work through to destination would be used if it was available.

[Fat Controller]

In GWR days there were universities on its network at Bristol, Birmingham, Cardiff, Oxford and London (Birkenhead would have handled Liverpool traffic). BR WR of course ended up with many more as new ones were created post-war. There would have been more boarding schools in GW days than later as they started to go out of fashion postwar with the decline of empire. But the other major irregular flows would have been military, with sailors to and from Plymouth and also Dartmouth Naval College, the army all over the place and holding exercises on Salisbury Plain, and the RAF rapidly expanding in the late 1930s and opening new aerodromes and camps. Post war continuing conscription meant loads of servicemen and women being moved from one base to another. All good sources of loads for passenger-rated vans. ,

Don't forget Aberystwyth, Lampeter (not many students, but those Geneva Gowns took up a lot of room..) and Swansea.