Banking Engines at Mountain Ash (nr Cresselly Villas/Crossing)

[steveNCB7754]

Hi, I've tried a general search on RmWeb and online, but I hope I can pick the collective brains of those in the know, on an aspect of prototype operations at a location I am interested in, namely Mountain Ash in the 1960's.

 

 

In a 'Back Track' magazine article in the October 2011 issue ('South East Wales Wanderings -  A Pot-Pourri of Things Welsh' by Edward A Evans), there is B/W photograph of BR 57XX 0-6-0PT No.3731, captioned as being outside Cresselly Villas (near to Cresselly Crossing on the Vale of Neath line) awaiting its next shunting or banking duty, on 4th June 1962.  From a prototypical point of view (and by inference, its application to a model layout), I have one or two points I'd like to clarify/understand.

 

 

Firstly, I assume that the banking will be north-bound (or was here still a gradient to be negotiated south-bound from there)?  Presumably the direction this type of loco faced, has no bearing on its abilities as a banker, its just that the photo shows it facing south implying that north-bound banking will be bunker-first?  Was this in order to keep the smoke out of the driver's eyes?

 

 

Next, coupled-up or not?  I'm aware in other locations (and have seen it demonstrated in model form), that the rear banker merely buffers-up and once the lead engine has the load at/near the summit of the gradient, the banker engine drops off and returns to its starting point to await the next duty.  Equally, I have seen descriptions in which the banking engine is actually coupled to the rear of the train, necessitating the train having to stop once the summit is passed, so that the banker engine can be uncoupled.  Which was true at Mountain Ash and why?

 

 

Finally, that return of the banker engine to its starting point -  'wrong-line' or 'right-line'?  Under control of a suitably located signal box, the return of the loco 'wrong-line' (i.e. using the very track up which it had just banked) to its starting point, is obviously a lot easier than getting it to switch to the 'right-line' for its return, followed by a switch back to the original line for the next duty.  The latter method also requires the provision of the necessary points to do so (unless they were required anyway, for other reasons).  On the S&D at Evercreech as an example, I'm pretty sure the banker engines returned 'wrong-line' to their refuge in the centre road at the station, but what happened at Mountain Ash?

 

 

At the end of the day, on your own model, you can do whatever you like, but I'd like to know what happened in actual practise.  Such a movement on a model provides another interesting element and with DCC, this is a 'no-brainer' so it would almost be a sin not to include it.

 

 

Thanks in advance for any insights.

 

 

Steve N

[corneliuslundie]

It could have been there for banking or for pilot work. Certainly the 1908 WTT (a lot earlier, I know, but things changed slowly) shows a polit engine at Mountain Ash for about three hours preparing trrains. Banking or piloting was also common, often for quite long distances such as Aberdare to Sirhowy Junction.

 

The gradient was generally up from Quakers Yard to Aberdare. I don't have a gradient profile but I don't remember any downhill bits, so banking unless long distance would have been towards Aberdare or Hirwaun. However, I think most of the east bound trains were assembled at Aberdare.

 

Ragarding wrong line running, I have no specific knowledge but I doubt it as there were plenty of crossovers (including one at Crescelly Crossing), the line was busy and I don't think wrong line working was authorised unless really necessary.

[corneliuslundie]

I have now looked at the September 1949 WTT. I was slightly wrong about gradients. They were as follows:

Quakers Yard   1 in 100 F

Penrhiwceiber   116 F

Cresselley Crossing   100 F

Mountain Ash   703 F

Middle Duffryn   126 F

Cwmbach Crossing    250 R

Cwmbach Halt   126 F

Cwmbach Siding   160 R

Aberdare   65 R

Gadlys Junction   97 F

Trecynon Halt   49 R

Gelli Tarw Junction   50 R

Hirwaun   50 R

Here R is rising  from Pontypool Road

 

There is again a section on Authorised Banking and Shunting Engines. There were three at Mountain Ash. No 1 spent some time shunting at Mountain Ash. No 2 used for banking as required (also had other duties). No 3 banked from Mountain Ash to Gadlys as required seven hours a day.

 

By the way I got this information from a WTT I downloaded from the web.

[steveNCB7754]

... Banking or piloting was also common, often for quite long distances such as Aberdare to Sirhowy Junction.

 

... Regarding wrong line running, I have no specific knowledge but I doubt it as there were plenty of crossovers (including one at Crescelly Crossing), the line was busy and I don't think wrong line working was authorised unless really necessary.

 

Hi (again -  I think you've responded to me on a Mountain Ash-themed question before).

 

Thanks for this and you have reminded me about several accounts I've read, of the often wide-ranging journeys engine crews took in the valleys, on a normal day's shift then.

 

Your 'wrong-running' assessment makes sense and from a modelling point of view, this can either be accommodated by having the necessary crossovers on the scenic section, or doing it in the fiddle area (off scene) which, given your comment about the long trips such banking might involve, is probably more realistic.  Gives an excuse for a light-engine return at some point later on in the operating session.

 

Thanks very much.

 

Steve N

[steveNCB7754]

... I have now looked at the September 1949 WTT. I was slightly wrong about gradients ...

 

OK, now this is a bit more technical.

 

Although I have a reasonable knowledge of the area, I've had to spend a bit of time with my ref books and Google maps, to get my head around all those destinations!  You say that 'R' means 'Rising from Pontypool Road', but does that mean that those with an 'F' are therefore falling gradients from the same place?  If so, then presumably that means Mountain Ash, Cresselley Crossing et al are/were technically on a falling gradient (north-bound) from the south/Pontypool Road direction, or have I misinterpreted that?

 

Given that further north towards Aberdare, the gradients change to 'R' (Rising), does that imply that banking from Mountain Ash could have been required in either direction, or is it more determined by the kind of freight likely in a particular direction?

 

Sorry if I'm being a bit dense, but this is fascinating stuff nevertheless.

 

Steve N

[corneliuslundie]

We may well have corresponded before. I wanted to model Nelson & Llancaiach but gave up when I decided I couldn't squeeze it into the garage. So I have been collecting information on the line for years. I still have long term plans for such a layout, but based on Penar Junction. In the meantime I shall start soon on a layout based in an imaginary valley in the Quakers Yard area with a joint GWR/RR branch.

 

Yes, F is falling coming from Pontypool Road so rising westbound..

 

You don't really need to know in detail all the points in the WTT but as you can see it is a bit of a switchback, though not very steep until you get north of Gadlys. Those gradients would almost certainly need a banker. But evidently the third Mountain Ash loco was rostered to bank as far as Gadlys, not all the way. I don't know why unless it was for empties to collieries in the area.

 

Going south there was a stretch of 1 in 100/116 all the way to Quakers Yard, including through the single line tunnel west of the Taff. I am sure I have read about banking westbound through this tunnel, as it was pretty grim for the banker's crew. But there is no specific mention of the Mountain Ash locos doing it.

 

A book I would recommend is "Aberdare. The railways and tramroads" by John Mear, published by the author in 1999 (ISBN 0 9518524 1 8). But it will probably delay your modelling for some time once you get into the details.

[steveNCB7754]

Hi again,

 

Thanks for that also.

 

Quakers Yard was interesting, in that (as I'm sure you know) it was one of the few places in the South Wales system where direct access was provided through from one valley into another (albeit quite near to the southern 'confluence' of both).  Quite long journeys were otherwise required, to get to neighbouring settlements which, in reality, were only a few miles apart.

 

Thought I'd remembered something about banking up to Quaker's Yard, but it turned out to be from Abercynon (Duty 'JP1') up the 1 in 40 gradient to Quaker Low Level (the tunnel being accessed from the now gone, Quaker High Level station of course).

 

Thanks for the book recommendation (I'll add it to my list!).  Modelling time for me, seems difficult to find.  Research time seems to be easy to find -  'go figure'!

 

Steve N